So basically the FSD take rate is so abysmal right now (and understandably so) that they are offering what is essentially FSD at 50% off
...and still no one will buy it. Get real, Tesla.
...and still no one will buy it. Get real, Tesla.
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EAP Return to US
- Thread starter MikeyMikeD
- Start date
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
<citation needed>
Tons of folks have posted here over the years about how well things like ALC and NoA work for them.
Tons more have asked for years to bring back EAP specifically so they can get those without paying full FSD price. Heck that's how we got to this discussion- folks asking Elon that for years!
Certainly there's also some folks who insist none of them ever worked well for them but I've seen nothing I'd remotely consider proof it isn't your side in the minority here.
Well, there's the answer to S4WRXTTCS question about what added value HW3 owners are getting out of EAP then
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Maybe I don’t know how to use it, but I came up on the spots and put it in reverse and the take rate of Autopark was very very low. It seems that you have to get too close to the spots to actually be able to make it easy to get into them in one single turn. It did not detect them when I was far enough away from them to be where I would want to be when making a reverse parking maneuver.
Eventually I got it to work. The first time it aborted and I don’t know why. The second time it felt my hand on the wheel and aborted. They don’t let you continue/resume. The third time it finally worked after a backwards, single forward and then back maneuver, which would not have been necessary if I had parked myself. It ended up about two inches off of centered in the spot which isn’t great but better than the prior version for sure. If it is going to go forward to get it right I expected it to be centered.
It took about 10 minutes to park. I tried the upper level in the sun and never had any luck there with it detecting a spot.
Probably incompetence on my part. Seems like you should be able to tell it you want to park though (can you?). Seems like it should also know it since my last destination is where I was.
Anyway I was not impressed but at least you don’t require cars next to you to park. That is progress. And maybe I am missing something in how to initiate it. It does kind of suck that you have to back into spots but that is not a surprise. At least you don’t have fear of running into the end stop.
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All you have to do is look at various threads as they refer to EAP features that don't involve basic AP.
Smart Summon - Is ridiculed
Auto Park - You yourself admits that its not fast enough to really be useful in rear world situations. You also acknowledge that Vision Autopark is better, but EAP doesn't promise Vision Autopark.
Auto Lane Change - From what I've seen on various threads is this is what people really want. It makes sense as it makes AP so much more seamless.
NoA - This is ridiculed all the time for making dumb decisions. It's also something that's very dependent on quality of the maps that it relies on.
If Tesla is convinced that these features REALLY WORK then they should offer a 30 day trial to allow people to test out the features for themselves. There is a danger of listening too much to forums because expectations and experience varies wildly.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
If your standard is "an insignificantly tiny % of all owners can be found complaining about it" then apparently all of these suck too:
iPhones
Android phones
PCs
Macs
Literally every brand and model of car ever made
Every airline ever
Every TV show ever
Every movie ever
Every book ever
(I could go on for a really, really long time here...)
As I said, range needs to be better. Otherwise if I have a close enough spot I've used it to great effect to have the car pick me up in a covered area when it's raining. I agree it's not useful in, say, the costco parking lot at busy times though- so I'd definitely score this the "worst" of the features.
No, in fact, I said the exact opposite of that.
That vision autopark is FINALLY USEFUL. The previous version was not as it was insanely slow, required cars on both sides of the spot, and didn't even see spots most of the time.
The new version is a LITTLE slower than a human, but not terribly so....meaning you can actually choose to use it. For example if I'm going into a place that'll require a mask, I hit autopark and while it's doing that I get out my mask and put it on-- Or I grab my phone off the wireless charger and put it back in my pocket-- or I finish the drink I was drinking--- rather than have to be manually parking.... so net savings of time.
If I'm parking and have nothing useful to do with my hands I probably still do it manually because it's a few seconds quicker.
So it's not life changing, but it's absolutely useful in the real world
(the previous non-vision version was not)
Yup. Plus AP tends to make me care less about slower traffic... ALC combined with NoA helpfully passes such folks anyway without my having to intervene.
So is Siri- but it's still useful as hell.
Sure.
And folks who live where the maps are decent get massive value from it.
Which is most people (in NA BTW... I recognize it's semi-crippled in the EU)
They have offered a 48 hour one for FSD for years now.
If you want a 1-month one it's $199.
Says the guy whose only source of "THE FEATURES ALL SUCK" is.... listening to forums too much
I hope this is a joke?
The probability of FSD working on current cars sensors suite sufficiently well in the next year that anyone would spend $50K on it is vanishingly small. Like 1% maybe. It just is not happening.
The probability that, yet again, FSD is further away than Musk tweets.. and that is why they are trying to get some cash by giving away 99% of the useful features at 50% of the price is.. significantly higher than 1%.
Actual confidence in FSD would look like some of the stuff the Germans are doing - hands-free below certain speeds / manufacturer absorbing liability in specific speed ranges & driving modes / etc.
Continued perpetual beta with limited, test-gated access .. while giving away the majority of the working features at half the price does not look like confidence In the product.
Again yes people are reading this two ways.This has been a really interesting Rorschach test
Some folks are convinced this is proof FSD is far away- so they're desperate to get SOME money now from more people.
Others are convinced this is proof FSD is REALLY CLOSE- because that means having the "more than EAP" stuff in one extra-charge package will finally be worth buying on its own.
FWIW, I don't think widespread RTs are coming anytime soon---but FSD city streets (the thing currently in narrow release beta) is gonna be L2 anyway even in wide release, so that's irrelevant to this discussion.
That said I also find that first argument has flaws... Largest being they were already recognizing over 50% of the 12k price, so they're actually losing recognized revenue per EAP sale vs per FSD sale (though it might be offset by more people buying it- either way it's gonna be a rounding error compared to the $ Tesla earns otherwise).
That's not entirely accurate. FSD has been doing stop sign and stoplight recognition and reaction for a couple years now, EAP does not do that. Some folks find that adds significant value when they use AP on local roads (though you're not technically supposed to of course
(that's apart from the city streets beta test stuff that is not officially "part" of buying FSD at all right now, but is eventually intended to be once it's good enough for wide release).
But weight the probabilities, given Musks past statements & performance on FSD for what… 5+ years?
Is this move more likely a show of decreased or increased confidence in a working FSD going widespread general release “this year”?
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
I bought it within minutes of finding out EAP was available again. ALC and (potentially) NoA will undoubtedly make longer drives and full road trips that much more appealing. $6k+tax is quite an outlay but as much fun and joyful as this car is to drive for me, this is a very worthy enhancement for me to purchase. #notupsetaboutit
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I think that's exactly the question the folks reading it two ways have 2 different, opposing, answers for
But here I'll suggest an "ELON IS PLAYING 4D CHESS" 3rd alternative.
This is a win EITHER way.
Take rate on 6k for all but one of the already-available features is gonna be higher than on 12k for the "only adds one added thing and a promise of one more thing" one right?
Probably higher enough that total recognized revenue is at least equal or higher- right?
If FSD does NOT go to wide release by end of year- that's a net win on revenue. And continues to be one going forward compared to the previous situation.
If FSD -does- go to wide release by end of year- (or anytime after) we KNOW they're gonna raise the price on it again-- so now the folks who only bought EAP for 6k will need to pay MORE than 6k to upgrade to FSD if they want it. For any of them that were CONSIDERING paying 12k total but decided to take the 6k route to "be safe" Tesla now gets more $ from em. And gets to recognize all of it. That's also a win.
One other thought--- though I've seen no evidence for this so far.
Let's say they end up deciding EAP -does- now include HW3 for those who are still on 2.x.
Cost wise that's trivial at this point to Tesla... but potentially lets them drop all future development on the 2.x codebase, for a net long term savings.
I have FSD Beta on both cars. I paid for AP/FSD for $2000/$3000 on my 12/2016 S in 2019 and EAP/FSD for $5000/$2000 for my 1/2018 Model 3 in 2018/2019. FSD was purchased for both cars during the Spring 2019 brief “sale” that Elon later said was a mistake that wouldn’t be repeated.
Why was the S FSD $2000 cheaper than FSD for the 3? I bought EAP for the newer car when the older S had nothing mostly because my wife didn’t want autopilot and the S was primarily her car. Then during the “salel I was able to bring the S to FSD for $5000 while the 3 required $7000.
I think what I paid for FSD on the S was worth $5000 and even am ok with having paid $7000 for the 3. But $12,000? Not a chance. But of course that is just what I value them. Others may readily pay $12,000 or much more. With the price of the current S Plaid, $12,000 is practically pocket change. But of course Tesla’s challenge is getting enough 3 and Y owners to participate.
Would I pay $6000 for EAP? Well, I paid $5000 for it 4 years ago and don’t regret it, so yes I would probably pay the $6000 without a regret. This thread points out what most of us have known for several years Buying all autopilot options are expensive and the resulting products often are frustrating.
I’m glad I have FSD on both cars, but my wife thinks it’s a waste of money. I do know that not being able to transfer FSD to a new car means I won’t consider a new Tesla for a long time, if ever. I imagine many of you with FSD feel the same way. That should worry Tesla. Even Tesla which currently sells every car it can make will someday need repeat customers.
Why was the S FSD $2000 cheaper than FSD for the 3? I bought EAP for the newer car when the older S had nothing mostly because my wife didn’t want autopilot and the S was primarily her car. Then during the “salel I was able to bring the S to FSD for $5000 while the 3 required $7000.
I think what I paid for FSD on the S was worth $5000 and even am ok with having paid $7000 for the 3. But $12,000? Not a chance. But of course that is just what I value them. Others may readily pay $12,000 or much more. With the price of the current S Plaid, $12,000 is practically pocket change. But of course Tesla’s challenge is getting enough 3 and Y owners to participate.
Would I pay $6000 for EAP? Well, I paid $5000 for it 4 years ago and don’t regret it, so yes I would probably pay the $6000 without a regret. This thread points out what most of us have known for several years Buying all autopilot options are expensive and the resulting products often are frustrating.
I’m glad I have FSD on both cars, but my wife thinks it’s a waste of money. I do know that not being able to transfer FSD to a new car means I won’t consider a new Tesla for a long time, if ever. I imagine many of you with FSD feel the same way. That should worry Tesla. Even Tesla which currently sells every car it can make will someday need repeat customers.
Occam’s razor is probably the third option - Musk needs cash NOW.
Q2 production issues with supply chain & China shutdowns.
Q3 looking like more of the same.
He’s complained about Berlin & Texas burning cash.
Berlin staffing and now gas supply issues.
Layoffs.
Etc.
Raise prices & offer an FSD-lite which will have a higher take rate.
So Tesla comes away with higher margin per vehicle, and higher total profit, even if production/sales numbers are down a bit…
Q2 production issues with supply chain & China shutdowns.
Q3 looking like more of the same.
He’s complained about Berlin & Texas burning cash.
Berlin staffing and now gas supply issues.
Layoffs.
Etc.
Raise prices & offer an FSD-lite which will have a higher take rate.
So Tesla comes away with higher margin per vehicle, and higher total profit, even if production/sales numbers are down a bit…
aaah... talking L5 right now when current FSD isn't even L3. yeah... by the time L5 "robotaxis" are regulatorily approved... the current Model 3/ Ys are already long at the recycling yard.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Again the "regulatory approved" nonsense is just that.
L5 is legal right now in half a dozen US states.
It's not "regulators" that are preventing it from being on the road. It's the lack of existence of a safe working L5 system.
L5 is legal right now in half a dozen US states.
It's not "regulators" that are preventing it from being on the road. It's the lack of existence of a safe working L5 system.
L3/ L4 / L5 all push the liability away from the driver onto the manufacturer. So yeah... unless Tesla wants be in constant multi million $ litigation ... it's not happening. Also outside the US - even L3 needs regulatory approval. Mercedes had to get approval from the "Kraftfahrt Bundesamt" for their L3 system in the EQS.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
There's nothing in the SAE levels that governs legal liability at all though.
That's determined entirely by state law (in the US anyway).
There's multiple companies operating L4 vehicles- today- in multiple US states.
So if by "it" you mean "companies operating >L2 vehicles on public roads it's definitely happening.
The EU is vastly vastly more over-regulated than the US is. Even L2 stuff is largely crippled in comparison to what it can do here... and their L3 system is likewise heavily gimped to fit the rules.
Has nothing whatsoever to do with what someone could offer here if they wished to- without any of the same regulatory concerns
BigNick
Infamous Fat Sweaty Guy
Tesla's (USA) site officially now has EAP available on a Model 3 (and, presumably others) for $6000.
For about half that price, I'd consider adding it to my M3P, but no way at $6K.
Also, at least in the current version of the Tesla app, it's NOT available as a subscription to add to my car. Maybe this will require an app update to become available in the future, but right now only FSD is available for subscription at $199/mo.
For about half that price, I'd consider adding it to my M3P, but no way at $6K.
Also, at least in the current version of the Tesla app, it's NOT available as a subscription to add to my car. Maybe this will require an app update to become available in the future, but right now only FSD is available for subscription at $199/mo.
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Not sure where to post this. Ordered MX a yr ago but EDD still out. I ordered FSD. Can I just get enhanced auto pilot when I do get a VIN and maybe get to schedule delivery for $6K or do I have to get the $12K FSD package? What impact would either have? I would think no impact and save some $ since it’s all a download.
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