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EAP was removed [ car purchased third party ]

BritneySpears

Member
Nov 17, 2020
101
134
San Jose, California
Thats not what this OP said. The OP said "tesla acknowledged they removed it" there was no mention at all of "they acknowledge it was purchased". Read the OPs statement again, which is below.. relevant quote bolded by me.

This doesn't seem fair to me. If you you see EAP in the screen menu when you buy it it's part of the car. It's part of the purchase price. Transaction complete. It matters not if it was paid for or not or by whom. If someone feels they have an ownership claim against something you have that you think you paid for legitimately they should not have the right to take it from you. I reject the premise that a software feature can be considered a "trial" by Tesla unless explicitly labeled as such to any viewer of the vehicle.

I bought my Tesla with 18" in wheels and then added the 19" wheels later. My tesla account details still show 18" wheels. Does that mean tesla can, at their discretion, remove my 19" wheels and replace them back with 18" wheels" just because they don't have a record of a transaction of me buying the 19" from them?
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
8,870
9,876
Riverside Co. CA
This doesn't seem fair to me. If you you see EAP in the screen menu when you buy it it's part of the car. It's part of the purchase price. Transaction complete. It matters not if it was paid for or not or by whom. If someone feels they have an ownership claim against something you have that you think you paid for legitimately they should not have the right to take it from you. I reject the premise that a software feature can be considered a "trial" by Tesla unless explicitly labeled as such to any viewer of the vehicle.

I bought my Tesla with 18" in wheels and then added the 19" wheels later. My tesla account details still show 18" wheels. Does that mean tesla can, at their discretion, remove my 19" wheels and replace them back with 18" wheels" just because they don't have a record of a transaction of me buying the 19" from them?

I am not tesla, and refuse to get into a discussion about software vs hardware. For my impressions on that, see my subsequent post in this thread:

EAP was removed [ car purchased third party ]
 

sonicP3D

Member
Feb 4, 2019
106
104
CA
This doesn't seem fair to me. If you you see EAP in the screen menu when you buy it it's part of the car. It's part of the purchase price. Transaction complete. It matters not if it was paid for or not or by whom. If someone feels they have an ownership claim against something you have that you think you paid for legitimately they should not have the right to take it from you. I reject the premise that a software feature can be considered a "trial" by Tesla unless explicitly labeled as such to any viewer of the vehicle.

I bought my Tesla with 18" in wheels and then added the 19" wheels later. My tesla account details still show 18" wheels. Does that mean tesla can, at their discretion, remove my 19" wheels and replace them back with 18" wheels" just because they don't have a record of a transaction of me buying the 19" from them?

Good point. Innocent until proven guilty right? Tesla should show proof beyond a reasonable doubt that it was added to the car under-the-tables, then it is probably ok to remote-remove it from the car. Just because there's no records of it being purchased doesn't mean it wasn't part of some written agreement between sales advisor and the customer. (If it were just verbal agreements, then yeah that's quite shady and under-the-tables for sure.)

In the wheels analogy; If Tesla can show evidence that someone broke into their warehouse and stole a set of 19" from them and also shows them being put onto VIN# 135790 right under their zoom-enhance! cameras, then it's probably reasonable for them to snatch it back from your car with a mobile-repo-ranger. :p
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
8,870
9,876
Riverside Co. CA
Good point. Innocent until proven guilty right? Tesla should show proof beyond a reasonable doubt that it was added to the car under-the-tables, then it is probably ok to remote-remove it from the car. Just because there's no records of it being purchased doesn't mean it wasn't part of some written agreement between sales advisor and the customer. (If it were just verbal agreements, then yeah that's quite shady and under-the-tables for sure.)

In the wheels analogy; If Tesla can show evidence that someone broke into their warehouse and stole a set of 19" from them and also shows them being put onto VIN# 135790 right under their zoom-enhance! cameras, then it's probably reasonable for them to snatch it back from your car with a mobile-repo-ranger. :p

Sales advisors likely dont have authority to have that kind of agreement. Like I said, in most cases, we end up finding out that the car had the free trial turned on and never turned off. Not in all cases, but in most.

So, it was never bought in the first place, most times and tesla turns it off. Whether you look at that like "these wheels are on the car I legally bought" or " I am buying this cable box that has all the channels unlocked on it without paying the cable company for it, this is legit, right?" is up to each individual.

Its my opinion Tesla looks at it like the later, and simply does what the cable company would do in such a situation (which is turn off the cable service).

Whether this is "right" or not, I am not getting into, as I mentioned.
 

polyphonic54

Member
Aug 29, 2019
317
250
USA
We sold our Model 3 which had EAP for years, but... we never actually paid for it !
My description to the dealership was clear, since I knew what was on our contract: basic Autopilot.

The problem is, if the dealership or whomever processed the vehicle post-trade just took a look at the car's display, it said 'Enhanced Autopilot.'

This could easily have been the result of an honest mistake. Since the car was used - whomever described the vehicle as having 'Enhanced Autopilot' sold you a vehicle with a missing feature. It was their responsibility to check the VIN and verify the car's equipment.

^^ That's just one scenario though. I agree that the manufacturer is to blame for having a poor system in place that leads to these issues.
 
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BritneySpears

Member
Nov 17, 2020
101
134
San Jose, California
Sales advisors likely dont have authority to have that kind of agreement. Like I said, in most cases, we end up finding out that the car had the free trial turned on and never turned off. Not in all cases, but in most.

So, it was never bought in the first place, most times and tesla turns it off. Whether you look at that like "these wheels are on the car I legally bought" or " I am buying this cable box that has all the channels unlocked on it without paying the cable company for it, this is legit, right?" is up to each individual.

Its my opinion Tesla looks at it like the later, and simply does what the cable company would do in such a situation (which is turn off the cable service).

Whether this is "right" or not, I am not getting into, as I mentioned.

Just an analogy note: If you're buying the cable box from a private party and you know there's something nefarious about it - hacked, unpaid subscription, below market price, etc.., that's different. No viewer of a car they're looking to buy with installed software they can see and operate should ever have to worry that it might later go away (as in temporary because it was free trial) or that it was hacked. Rhetorical.

Yet there are more analogies! :) I can sell my free hulu subscription. But then when the owner logs in with the credentials I sold him he'd be able to see the expiration date. If you can't see the expiration date on some free trial Tesla installs or it's not labeled in any such way for you to know better then it's permanent.
 
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sonicP3D

Member
Feb 4, 2019
106
104
CA
All good points.
So one solution could be that Tesla should make themselves available to verify a car's upgrade configuration(public-facing VIN checker page or request by email to avoid scrapers), to have everything black and white before cars exchange hands. Similar to how Apple had the iCloud activation lock checker for confirming if the ebay iPhone is legit or stolen.
 
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jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
8,870
9,876
Riverside Co. CA
All good points.
So one solution could be that Tesla should make themselves available to verify a car's upgrade configuration(public-facing VIN checker page or request by email to avoid scrapers), to have everything black and white before cars exchange hands. Similar to how Apple had the iCloud activation lock checker for confirming if the ebay iPhone is legit or stolen.

They should, yes. Thats a very reasonable expectation, that tesla currently does not offer to my knowledge.
 

Mattopotamus

Member
Jun 7, 2020
349
248
Atlanta
All good points.
So one solution could be that Tesla should make themselves available to verify a car's upgrade configuration(public-facing VIN checker page or request by email to avoid scrapers), to have everything black and white before cars exchange hands. Similar to how Apple had the iCloud activation lock checker for confirming if the ebay iPhone is legit or stolen.

That would be perfect. I don't think the 3rd parties are trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes, and it is a genuine mistake.
 

NOLADriver

Member
Sep 16, 2019
368
343
New Orelans, LA
Good point. Innocent until proven guilty right? Tesla should show proof beyond a reasonable doubt that it was added to the car under-the-tables, then it is probably ok to remote-remove it from the car. Just because there's no records of it being purchased doesn't mean it wasn't part of some written agreement between sales advisor and the customer. (If it were just verbal agreements, then yeah that's quite shady and under-the-tables for sure.)

In the wheels analogy; If Tesla can show evidence that someone broke into their warehouse and stole a set of 19" from them and also shows them being put onto VIN# 135790 right under their zoom-enhance! cameras, then it's probably reasonable for them to snatch it back from your car with a mobile-repo-ranger. :p


Your point makes sense, and I see the logic behind it, but not in this scenario. Tesla cant just go grab the wheels back, thats a crime. A repo is because the car is owned by the bank as part of a loan. Its not a stolen car part that was taken as part of a crime. Only the Police can seize the wheels as part of a criminal investigation. Tesla sure cant, thats called felony theft.

I assume you were kidding anyway...The "mobile repo ranger" was funny af though... :)
 

BritneySpears

Member
Nov 17, 2020
101
134
San Jose, California
All good points.
So one solution could be that Tesla should make themselves available to verify a car's upgrade configuration(public-facing VIN checker page or request by email to avoid scrapers), to have everything black and white before cars exchange hands. Similar to how Apple had the iCloud activation lock checker for confirming if the ebay iPhone is legit or stolen.

There are 3rd party VIN decoders online for cars like BMW. You can type in the VIN and see all the options the original buyer had the manuf put on the car. There used to be Audi, but lately that's hard to find. And there was for a short while an Audi Mulroney sticker pdf download website for the vin you type in. All that was 3rd party though and there's no guarantee it's accurate. It's not clear to me why manuf don't post their vin configurations but my guess it has mostly to do with dealers not wanting to give away valuable information that can benefit them instead.

All said I still believe Tesla has not right to interject itself post sale into removing software from any car they find should not have been there in the first place. I also don't believe a buyer should need a receipt for existing software that wasn't on the original Mulroney to protect themselves in case Tesla tries to remove it. If it's on the car they're looking at to buy and it looks no different than any other software feature (meaning it's not labeled trial or something) it's part of the car, part of the price, part of the transaction.
 

OCR1

Active Member
Jan 28, 2018
3,759
4,111
Southern California
If you decide to purchase a used Model 3 from a company like CarMax, you really have to know what you are doing because those companies are not knowledgeable on Tesla vehicles. They have no way of confirming if a car has AP, EAP, or FSD, and if it was paid for or just on a trial period.

The best way to confirm the features of a car is to do a conference call between yourself, the seller, and Tesla to confirm what has been paid for. The seller needs to be on the phone because they will not discuss the features of a car that you do not own. Once you confirm it, ask Tesla to put it in writing if possible, since Tesla reps often make mistakes.

In addition, the seller should be able to show you the original purchase agreement showing what they were charged for. Or, if they upgraded after taking delivery they should have a separate receipt for the upgrade they can show you.

If you can’t verify this information, just assume the car does not have AP/EAP/FSD and base your purchase decision accordingly.
 

Big Dog

Active Member
Mar 7, 2016
1,565
1,551
Irvine, CA
This doesn't seem fair to me. If you you see EAP in the screen menu when you buy it it's part of the car. It's part of the purchase price. Transaction complete. It matters not if it was paid for or not or by whom. If someone feels they have an ownership claim against something you have that you think you paid for legitimately they should not have the right to take it from you. I reject the premise that a software feature can be considered a "trial" by Tesla unless explicitly labeled as such to any viewer of the vehicle.

I bought my Tesla with 18" in wheels and then added the 19" wheels later. My tesla account details still show 18" wheels. Does that mean tesla can, at their discretion, remove my 19" wheels and replace them back with 18" wheels" just because they don't have a record of a transaction of me buying the 19" from them?

If you trade in the car to Tesla, they have the absolute right to change out your wheels.

If you you see EAP in the screen menu when you buy it it's part of the car. It's part of the purchase price. Transaction complete. It matters not if it was paid for or not or by whom.

Sure it does. Let's say you are an unscrupulous type, and go begging Tesla for a free 30 day trial for FSD. They like your spunk, so the finally agree and it shows up on your screen. Then, you list the car with FSD and sell it over the weekend full well knowing that FSD is only good until the end of the month. You have just committed fraud.
 

polyphonic54

Member
Aug 29, 2019
317
250
USA
EAP showed up on my screen for years. It was not paid for, not on the Monroney, and not part of the purchase agreement. Tesla's mistake.

But yeah, what would you think if I sold you my car and told you it had EAP?

They need to fix their system.
 

BritneySpears

Member
Nov 17, 2020
101
134
San Jose, California
If you trade in the car to Tesla, they have the absolute right to change out your wheels.

Sure it does. Let's say you are an unscrupulous type, and go begging Tesla for a free 30 day trial for FSD. They like your spunk, so the finally agree and it shows up on your screen. Then, you list the car with FSD and sell it over the weekend full well knowing that FSD is only good until the end of the month. You have just committed fraud.

I think you misread my point on the wheels. I did not write that "if you trade in your car".

You are entitled to your opinion on Tesla removing software from an owners car but I believe that in a court case, and I'm sure there's lots of precedence, that if someone buys a car configured a certain way, with certain software, for a certain price, Tesla would have no right to remove it. Tesla isn't harmed in the transaction, but the owner would be harmed in having Tesla take something from them. To me this is a different argument than who owns the software and licensing (which I'm NOT discussing here). If Tesla added a feature to a car but forgot to remove it or didn't have the software intelligence to detect an issue like this then that's their mistake.
 

BritneySpears

Member
Nov 17, 2020
101
134
San Jose, California
EAP showed up on my screen for years. It was not paid for, not on the Monroney, and not part of the purchase agreement. Tesla's mistake.

But yeah, what would you think if I sold you my car and told you it had EAP?

They need to fix their system.

Agreed, their lack of not having control over what they give away should not be to the demise of the buyer. I think a court would easily agree. For the software Tesla charges extra for they could easily embed information to whomever is sitting in the driver seat that it is trial, temporary, subscription, permanent, whatever...
 
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jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
8,870
9,876
Riverside Co. CA
No one is disputing that it was in your app. If it was never paid for by the original owner, it could have still be on the car without being paid for. Also, if the was traded into tesla, then sold (meaning they were the owner at some point) they had the right to remove it as owner of the vehicle.

Im still hoping to hear the answers to my questions to you near the beginning of this thread.

=====================================

You say you bought this "third party"... who exactly did you buy it from? If you bought it from a private party person, have them send you proof that EAP was purchased with their vehicle.

If you bought it from a third party dealer, who advertised the car as having EAP, then go back to that dealer. Tesla "usually" only removes EAP when it either was never purchased and wasnt supposed to be there in the first place (the original owner had a free trial that never expired or something) or, the car was traded into tesla at some point and they removed EAP and then sent the car to auction.

So, where did you buy it (from what dealer), what was advertised as coming with it, etc?
====================================
(personal opinion below. I want to be clear that below is simply my personal opinion as a regular user, and not an indication of anything I might or might not do as a moderator).

Right now, we have all the hallmarks of a troll post.

1. Recently joined forum
2. Makes post on controversial topic
3. Refuses to respond with even basic details
4. Sits back and watches the fallout

I quote my post above, because its the second time in this thread I asked for even basic information, like "where did the OP buy this car, and what was represented to OP during that process?" and I know the OP saw that post (they marked it), and yet we dont have an answer to something basic about this OPs post.

I am not one that automatically jumps to this conclusion, but, OP, lets get some details from you on this, and I suggest everyone else, lets stop dealing in hypotheticals, and "woulda coulda shoulda's" and focus on THIS OP's issue, of which we know almost nothing about.
 
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OCR1

Active Member
Jan 28, 2018
3,759
4,111
Southern California
If the feature is listed in the purchase agreement, the owner clearly has a right to it. If it shows up as being available on a screen, I’m not convinced the owner has any legal argument entitling them to the feature. There has to be a documented representation that the feature is included in the price. Just showing up on a screen would not likely be sufficient.

The Monroney sticker is another gray area. I can purchase a Model 3 that shows FSD in the Monroney sticker. I can ask them to remove FSD and not charge me for it. They SHOULD print out a new sticker. But if they forget and I go home with the old Monroney sticker showing FSD, I’m not convinced they have any legal requirement to provide it to me.

The problem with the Monroney sticker is that it was established long before we had the concept of software licensing in cars. So they did not contemplate how to deal with a car that has the physical hardware for features like FSD but can be turned on or off depending on whether the buyer chooses to pay for it.
 

ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
6,548
12,307
California
This is a shameless and despicable cash grab on the part of Tesla. It’s frankly embarrassing that we still have people on here defending this behavior as justifiable or arguing semantics.
 

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