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Early 75/75D pack degradation

ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
7,627
14,842
California
There has been a lot of discussion on this board about the higher than expected degradation of the 90kwh packs. I'm curious what other owners are experiencing with the 75kwh packs that were produced during the same time period. It appears they used the same cells, so it likely makes sense that these packs are going to degrade at the same high rate.


My December 2016 75, with 37,000 miles, has lost 8% of its original capacity in a year, with a 100% charge now yielding 229 rated miles. For the first 8 months of its life this car was a software locked 60, so it never charged to a true 100%.

I don't think my usage is particularly extreme - I drive ~120 miles per day, charge to 90% and typically have ~25% remaining at the end of the day. The car has been charged to a true 100% maybe 10 times, and discharged into the low single digits maybe 15 times. I estimate I've supercharged about 35-40 times.

Any other owners of early 75kwh packs (pre 100kwh pack announcement, because it appears around that time new cells were introduced in both the 100 and 75 packs that seem to exhibit degradation rates more in line with historical expectations) experiencing this level of decline? I know my miles are high but the reduction in range has far exceeded what I was conditioned to expect based on the behavior of other packs.

Would love to assemble some data on other peoples' experiences.

Thanks
Nick
 
My S75, built July/August 2016 (VIN in signature), with 26000km (16000 miles), original 90% rated range (or typical, as it's called in EU) was 341km (212 miles), and now, 13 months later, 90% SOC shows 332km (206 miles). approx 3% loss which is in line with my expectations.

The battery has been taken good care of, never run down to single digits (lowest was once down to 13%, and charged to 100% once, normally SOC is between 40% - 90%, supercharged approx 10 times in total).

One thing I have not done, and perhaps you should consider as well, is balancing the pack. Running down the battery to low - single digit SOC, and then charging all the way to 100%. It may improve the rated range display. My lifetime consumption is 188wh/km (302wh/mi).
 

davidc18

Active Member
Apr 25, 2015
1,840
1,285
Ft. Lauderdale
I think that you can expect to lose up to nearly 30% of your battery capacity as you age the pack which is why Tesla specifically warranties to this level on the M3. They have had to replace or buy back many 90s due to rapid capacity loss. I was very disappointed that my 90 was one of the unfortunate ones to rapidly lose capacity. I think the early 85 packs performed way above expectations which then set our community expectations unrealistically high to expect only small single digit capacity loss over the life of the vehicle.
 

Xenius

Active Member
Apr 24, 2015
1,046
1,478
Havertown, PA
There has been a lot of discussion on this board about the higher than expected degradation of the 90kwh packs. I'm curious what other owners are experiencing with the 75kwh packs that were produced during the same time period. It appears they used the same cells, so it likely makes sense that these packs are going to degrade at the same high rate.


My December 2016 75, with 37,000 miles, has lost 8% of its original capacity in a year, with a 100% charge now yielding 229 rated miles. For the first 8 months of its life this car was a software locked 60, so it never charged to a true 100%.

I don't think my usage is particularly extreme - I drive ~120 miles per day, charge to 90% and typically have ~25% remaining at the end of the day. The car has been charged to a true 100% maybe 10 times, and discharged into the low single digits maybe 15 times. I estimate I've supercharged about 35-40 times.

Any other owners of early 75kwh packs (pre 100kwh pack announcement, because it appears around that time new cells were introduced in both the 100 and 75 packs that seem to exhibit degradation rates more in line with historical expectations) experiencing this level of decline? I know my miles are high but the reduction in range has far exceeded what I was conditioned to expect based on the behavior of other packs.

Would love to assemble some data on other peoples' experiences.

Thanks
Nick

My car was custom ordered in June '16 and built in July '16 as a 60D. It was unlocked to a 75D between Christmas and New Years 2017. I started the car with 219 rated miles at 100%, and believe I was getting 209 at 100% right before we unlocked.

I can't tell right now (wife forgot to plug in yesterday) but I think we get 219 rated now at 90% (whatever the line between daily/trip is). So now after the unlock it seems like we have 0 loss again.
 

Buster1

Member
Oct 13, 2016
582
276
Ft Worth
I think that you can expect to lose up to nearly 30% of your battery capacity as you age the pack which is why Tesla specifically warranties to this level on the M3.

30% !!! No way.

Tesla battery data shows path to over 500,000 miles on a single pack

The Dutch-Belgium Tesla Forum has nearly 500 real life data points on their public spreadsheet. Their data supports maybe a 5% degradation from real life users after 200,000 miles! And 80% Capacity at 520,000 miles.

Tesla battery predicted to have 80% capacity after 840,000 km (521,000 mi)
 

davidc18

Active Member
Apr 25, 2015
1,840
1,285
Ft. Lauderdale
I hope 80% is correct but Tesla is now saying 70% for warranty and they would not have picked that number if they did not have to. It looks bad, really bad (who wants to watch their LR M3 turn into the SR M3 as the battery ages?) but they have the data and they have to absorb the warranty costs which I why they picked the 70% number. I suspect that essentially no M3 will require battery replacements under warranty (at 30% loss) unlike the 90 batteries (which have no specific loss number associated with them).

Based on my experience with the P90 (which Tesla repurchased) will fully expect that the M3 battery will perform within the warrantied specifications and I will be prepared to lose up to 30% over the life of the car.
 

3mp_kwh

Active Member
Feb 13, 2013
1,126
323
Boston
With both a P85D and a 75D, the 253 rated P85D can still range charge up to ~250. The 75D, rated at 259 won't break above 246. I range charge PD fully, once a month, and am in the car within the hour it finishes. By the slowness of the last 5 miles, sometimes taking 20+ minutes, I assume that is when the balancing occurs. In fairness, my wife's car has only been ranged charged ~4 times over the past 16 months. So, I can't control for whether her losses are cell, or balance, related. I drive faster, too, so that probably helps.
 

Hugh Mannity

Mediocre Member
Jul 31, 2014
1,349
831
Calgary, AB
There has been a lot of discussion on this board about the higher than expected degradation of the 90kwh packs. I'm curious what other owners are experiencing with the 75kwh packs that were produced during the same time period. It appears they used the same cells, so it likely makes sense that these packs are going to degrade at the same high rate.


My December 2016 75, with 37,000 miles, has lost 8% of its original capacity in a year, with a 100% charge now yielding 229 rated miles. For the first 8 months of its life this car was a software locked 60, so it never charged to a true 100%.

I don't think my usage is particularly extreme - I drive ~120 miles per day, charge to 90% and typically have ~25% remaining at the end of the day. The car has been charged to a true 100% maybe 10 times, and discharged into the low single digits maybe 15 times. I estimate I've supercharged about 35-40 times.

Any other owners of early 75kwh packs (pre 100kwh pack announcement, because it appears around that time new cells were introduced in both the 100 and 75 packs that seem to exhibit degradation rates more in line with historical expectations) experiencing this level of decline? I know my miles are high but the reduction in range has far exceeded what I was conditioned to expect based on the behavior of other packs.

Would love to assemble some data on other peoples' experiences.

Thanks
Nick

My situation is very similar to yours; i.e. a July '16 S75D build with a bit less mileage but similar charging behaviour since new. My battery indicates about a 5% loss in original rated range.

Perhaps the difference in our percentages is based on hot temps ? My car hasn't been exposed to the high heat conditions nearly as often as yours likely has being in California ? The Vancouver area tends to swing from very warm to cool year round.
 
My December 2016 75, with 37,000 miles, has lost 8% of its original capacity in a year, with a 100% charge now yielding 229 rated miles. For the first 8 months of its life this car was a software locked 60, so it never charged to a true 100%.

I don't think my usage is particularly extreme - I drive ~120 miles per day, charge to 90% and typically have ~25% remaining at the end of the day. The car has been charged to a true 100% maybe 10 times, and discharged into the low single digits maybe 15 times. I estimate I've supercharged about 35-40 times.

So you used superchargers 35-40 times in a single year? That seems like a lot of supercharging to me. I also think, though not horrible, your daily usage pattern is probably a bit harder on the battery than most. Your using from 90-25% per day, if somehow you could charge to 80% and then get a charge at your destination it would probably be better for your long term battery health.
 

Big Earl

bnkwupt
Supporting Member
Jul 12, 2017
6,311
12,233
Springfield, VA
These posts are talking about rated range. Does the rated range change due to drivers usage. In other words, if you drive conservatively you see rated mileage greater than if you drive aggregressively?

Rated range does not changed based on how you drive. It uses a fixed calculation for energy consumption (EPA rated).
 
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ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
7,627
14,842
California
So you used superchargers 35-40 times in a single year?
That seems like a lot of supercharging to me.
That’s my estimate. Stated another way, that represents less than 15% of the miles I’ve driven in that period.

I also think, though not horrible, your daily usage pattern is probably a bit harder on the battery than most. Your using from 90-25% per day, if somehow you could charge to 80% and then get a charge at your destination it would probably be better for your long term battery health.

Possibly. Though that still seems extreme and not representative of others’ experiences.

Car has been on an L1 charger at the airport for the weekend, went ahead and charged it to 100% to see where things are now. Should be done about the time I land in a couple hours.
 
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FlatSix911

Porsche 918 Hybrid
Jun 15, 2015
7,194
7,307
Silicon Valley
30% !!! No way.

Tesla battery data shows path to over 500,000 miles on a single pack

The Dutch-Belgium Tesla Forum has nearly 500 real life data points on their public spreadsheet.
Their data supports maybe a 5% degradation from real life users after 200,000 miles! And 80% Capacity at 520,000 miles.

Tesla battery predicted to have 80% capacity after 840,000 km (521,000 mi)
I agree ... Tesla owners seem too concerned about extreme battery degradation that the data does not support :cool:
The data clearly shows that for the first 50,000 miles (100,000 km), most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity, but after the 50,000-mile mark, the capacity levels off and it looks like it could be difficult to make a pack degrade by another 5%. The trend line actually suggests that the average battery pack could go another 150,000 miles (200,000 miles total) before coming close to 90% capacity.
tesla-battery-degradation-1.png

tesla-battery-degradation-2.png
 

ShockOnT

⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️
Jun 26, 2016
3,413
3,200
Sydney
With both a P85D and a 75D, the 253 rated P85D can still range charge up to ~250. The 75D, rated at 259 won't break above 246. I range charge PD fully, once a month, and am in the car within the hour it finishes. By the slowness of the last 5 miles, sometimes taking 20+ minutes, I assume that is when the balancing occurs. In fairness, my wife's car has only been ranged charged ~4 times over the past 16 months. So, I can't control for whether her losses are cell, or balance, related. I drive faster, too, so that probably helps.
The rated miles are just numbers. They don't actually tell you the capacity of the battery, or your actual range, and can't be used to compare two otherwise identical cars.
The only way to actually measure battery degradation is to fully charge the car then drive it until it stops.
 
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Big Earl

bnkwupt
Supporting Member
Jul 12, 2017
6,311
12,233
Springfield, VA
I agree ... Tesla owners seem too concerned about extreme battery degradation that the data does not support :cool:
The data clearly shows that for the first 50,000 miles (100,000 km), most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity, but after the 50,000-mile mark, the capacity levels off and it looks like it could be difficult to make a pack degrade by another 5%. The trend line actually suggests that the average battery pack could go another 150,000 miles (200,000 miles total) before coming close to 90% capacity.
tesla-battery-degradation-1.png

tesla-battery-degradation-2.png

I’d love to see those charts revised to show the different battery architectures. For example, compare the graphite anode packs (60 and 85 kWh) to the transitional silicone anode packs (90 kWh and other) compared to the newest packs (75 and 100 kWh).

Just because the early batteries were very robust doesn’t mean that all Tesla battery packs will have similar degradation rates.
 

davidc18

Active Member
Apr 25, 2015
1,840
1,285
Ft. Lauderdale
Time will tell how the new batteries hold up the best indication of what may happen is explained by Tesla's warranty:

Vehicle Warranty | Model 3

New Vehicle Limited Warranty
Your Model 3 is protected by a New Vehicle Limited Warranty for 4 years or 50,000 miles (80,000 km), whichever comes first. The Battery and Drive Unit in your vehicle are covered for a period of:

  • Vehicles with Standard Range Battery - 8 years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km), whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
  • Vehicles with Long Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles (192,000 km), whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
These warranties cover the repair or replacement necessary to correct defects in the materials or workmanship of any parts manufactured or supplied by Tesla that occur under normal use during the coverage period.

Vehicle Warranty | Model 3 | Tesla
Vehicle Warranty | Model 3

Our 70D with 44,000 miles is down to 226 miles at 100% (240 when new).
 
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