Eastern Canada Superchargers
- Thread starter Doug_G
- Start date
-
- Tags
- Canada Supercharging
Oh my, well, here I sit, typing this non-reply at 7PM Eastern Standard time in Toronto.
If Toronto isn't East, and isn't the center of the universe, where is it?
I thought it was the centre of everything.
iKhalid
Member
Drone Flyer
Active Member
Drone Flyer
Active Member
I think the title should be changed to "Central Canada Superchargers"!
Central Canada refers to Ontario and Quebec.
Perhaps in 2019, when and if SC's are built in the Maritimes, then a new thread called "Eastern Canada Superchagers" could be implemented then.
Doug, are you listening? LOL!
It is hearsay from one of the other threads - likely the one on Levis. But it isn't necessarily surprising as I believe the reverse happened in the Quebec ice storm of 15 years ago.
edit - Actually Riverbrick posted it in that thread and I think he works in the industry SuperChargers - Levis, Qc
Jim R
Member
The Eastern part of Canada starts, ahem, in the east, where NFLD/Labrador, NS, NB and PEI are located. It's particularly annoying for the folks in the EAST that there is no Tesla presence here.Oh my, well, here I sit, typing this non-reply at 7PM Eastern Standard time in Toronto.
If Toronto isn't East, and isn't the center of the universe, where is it?
PS. I'll give you that Toronto can be the center of the universe if you like, but then you'd have to give up the Eastern Canada title.
We have lots of tourists from central Canada here in NS. Many from Ontario. We want them to have Superchargers when they arrive in their Teslas.
Looks like the center of Canada is actually in Manitoba. Anyways, dumb debate for sure!
Centre of Canada - Wikipedia
Centre of Canada - Wikipedia
mknox
Well-Known Member
In order to retail electricity in Ontario, you have to be licensed by the Ontario Energy Board which, IMHO, is not a bad thing. Federal regulations require that the metering systems used be Measurement Canada approved, subject to periodic re-verification testing among other things which I also don't see as a bad thing. There are a number of non-utility entities in Ontario that already do this type of thing, so there is nothing really stopping Tesla other than the fact that they like to do things "their" way and probably don't want the hassle of coming into compliance with Ontario and Federal laws on this.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say it is "inaccurate". Are you referring to the charge for use of the station by the minute? If so, there is nothing really inaccurate about that since you're paying for a time based service, not electricity in this case.
The line goes through Winnipeg. If a Supercharger is ever built there it will depend on where it is relative to the Golden Boy.
I would suggest that people are more interested in the kWh than the opportunity to be plugged in for x minutes. As a matter of fact, I would bet that people would pay MORE to be plugged in for shorter periods. . Fortunately I know you're not being serious about this.So, to my original point, the current system is actually far worse than allowing non-certified metering devices. If some supplier wanted to game the current system by delivering power at a lower rate, they certainly can. And it would be 100% legal. Whereas deliberately installing faulty power meters would, at least, be fraud.
I don't think Tesla is unique. I don't think Chargepoint has certified power meters? Or Flo? And it seems unlikely to ever happen. Given this, it would seem that our bureaucracy is happy to leave us deal with a bad situation to protect their turf. That's unfortunate.
Last edited:
mknox
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid I have to disagree. The purpose of measurement Canada rules is for consumer protection to ensure that commodity quantities are valid and accurate. This applies to every measuring device used for commercial purposes from gasoline pumps to the butcher's scale. (you will often see the MC certification and/or seal on these pumps and scales too). I certainly don't want the butcher to just "eyeball it" when it comes to charging me for meat! There is no "turf" being protected here. Believe me, some of the rules are quite onerous and I think electric utilities would be happy not having to comply, but they do so recognizing the social benefit to having accurate metrology.
So, in this case I guess we have to agree to disagree. This is a bit different in that the cars themselves (at least in theory) have the ability to monitor power delivery. And there's the opportunity for an accurate cross check. That's not the case with the other items. Nobody carries a butcher's scale in their pocket.
BTW, I do deal with weights and measures canada on other things. They're a royal PITA and I can see why Tesla would not want to have to deal with one of these organizations in every jurisdiction.
So we have 3 options:
a) The perfect (but costly) solution, cents per kwh on certified devices
b) The close to perfect solution, cents per hour on uncertified devices - with ability of buyer to crosscheck.
c) Guaranteed inaccuracy - cents per minute based on some half-baked tiered scheme. Gaming the system is perfectly legal.
We can't get 1, so we're choosing 3? This is just silly.
mknox
Well-Known Member
I have compared what the car tells me vs. a utility grade meter and my car at least is way out. It happens to be in my favor (if I were using it to pay for electricity) because my car reports "low". This is why I don't rely on the car's displays to calculate how much electricity I'm using because it is not even close. I use my own supply meter or simply calculate using volts, amps and time when I'm away from home. My Tesla, at least, makes it seem like the car is far more efficient than it really is.
I get the frustration... I really do. After a career in the electric utility industry, the one thing that always bugged me is how complicated rate structures and billing systems are. This, in addition to the metrology issues complicates things even further. For instance:
In the case of a Supercharger station, the site owner (Tesla) pays the utility based on commodity (kWh based) demand (kW) regulatory (kWh) and delivery (kWh and fixed... moving heavily towards fixed). To boil all this down to a simple per kWh fee if Tesla were to sub-meter would be nearly impossible. If one month the station had no more than one car charging at a time, and the next 8, the demand component of the bill (a big piece) would vary wildly. As distribution rates move towards a fixed monthly charge it would make the per kWh conversion high when station use is low and low when station use is high.And in addition to all this, utilities across Ontario have different rates. I suppose Tesla could simply forego all of this and just charge some sort of nominal per kWh fee without worrying about cost recovery, but we still have the licencing and meter certification issues to deal with.
Because of all the above, station owners trying to make a commercial business case (which I agree is not Tesla's intent) would have no choice but to charge much higher per kWh fees than what we pay at home. People would likely complain mightily paying $1 / kWh (which it might take to fully recover all capital and operating costs) vs. $0.15 / kWh at home. Charging by the hour does make sense to me as it seems like the easiest thing for the layperson to understand.
It doesn't seem that complex to me. If you look at any retail business, they sell at strictly a per unit price. Yet their costs may be anything but. They will deal with minimum orders from vendors, fluctuating delivery charges, fluctuating inventory levels, fixed capital costs, fixed indirect costs, and any other number of fixed and variable costs that cannot be easily loaded into the product price. Yet they do it.
For me, as a business owner for 20 years, the calculations that you're discussing seem completely normal - and if anything on the simple side - since they have ONE product, delivered through ONE channel, and with a fairly predictable demand.
Not only that, but other jurisdictions seem to be doing it. Yes, we've got quite a mess on our hands, with our current generation and delivery systems. But that just means that we need to fix it. Ontario, with our incredible hydro-electric resource and installed base of nuclear, should be a green power panacea. There's no excuse for our current situation.
ZsoZso
Supporting Member
The Eastern part of Canada starts, ahem, in the east, where NFLD/Labrador, NS, NB and PEI are located. It's particularly annoying for the folks in the EAST that there is no Tesla presence here.
PS. I'll give you that Toronto can be the center of the universe if you like, but then you'd have to give up the Eastern Canada title.
As others have pointed out, geographically the center is in Manitoba, not in Ontario. Furthermore, there is no such thread, only East and West.
AFAIK, there used to be a single thread for all Canadian superchargers, but the actual discussion was a mix of BC-related activity and Ontario-related ones, so the thread was split into two to make it easier to find relevant information for owners, thus was born the Eastern and Western versions of the thread. IF we ever get so lucky to have superchargers throughout Canada in every province, then it will make sense to break up the threads further, e.g. by province.
Phillip L
Gas Passer
I assume what he was getting at was the common use of the terms in everyday speech in Canada and not strict geography. If someone in Ontario says they are heading "down east" then it is clear they are heading to one of the Atlantic provinces, and, in fact, usually means one of the Maritime provinces. Just like conceptually when someone in the Maritimes hears that someone is moving "out west" it usually means the "prairie provinces" and not BC, which is usually separate. But hopefully, as you say, we can start some smaller groups soon! Until then Ontario and Quebec can remain honourable members of the Atlantic Canada group.
Last edited:
Drone Flyer
Active Member
First day of Fall and still no further progress on the zillion SC's supposed to be built before the end of the year!
Meanwhile, they are going up like gang busters in the States.
Meanwhile, they are going up like gang busters in the States.
Have to disagree with you here. I think back in April they claimed there would be 750+ supercharger locations completed by the end of the year in the US and we are at 407. 750 clearly isn't going to happen. I'd be surprised if they get to 500. And they were at 350-380 ish when they made that claim so it's not like 407 is huge progress.
Drone Flyer
Active Member
Except in Canada, we were supposed to get a great deal of them built before New year's and we've had only two finished since the big announcement, Nanaimo and Edmonton. Quebec City is under construction, has been for months and a 3rd SC in the greater Montreal area is currently under construction.
I think Elon would have better believability if he sold his yet to be released "Musk Oil" fragrance in Nordstrom's!
Similar threads
