TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Eberhard Wants Three Phase

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Eberhard, Aug 30, 2011.

  1. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,141
    Location:
    Germany
    3-phase 277V/480V 70A
     
  2. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,141
    Location:
    Germany
    #2 Eberhard, Aug 30, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2011
    JB Straubel told me that Model S will charge up to 277V with more then 20kW on mono-phase
     
  3. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    4,822
    Location:
    Middelburg, The Netherlands
    I don't think we should start this discussion again, right?

    The big question I'm going to ask October 1st is the three-phase question, that really is the deal maker or breaker for me (and I guess a lot of Europeans). For now, let it be, we'll know in about a month.
     
  4. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,141
    Location:
    Germany
    I dont understand why nearly everyone in america is denying that a 3-phase grid exist there. It is there, but not everywhere. But if you see all the air cables on the east coast were the weakest point during the Hurricane Irene, there is need to change and to burry all cables into earth. But those new earth cables make only sense with 277/480V 3-phase. the distribution net works with 10.000V or even higher and are all 3-phase. We hat the same net until the 50's last century until it was upgraded to the current more efficient 3-phase 220/380V systems, the voltage increased since then to 240/400V today.
     
  5. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    17,252
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    From a technical standpoint you could be right.
    From an infrastructure expenditure standpoint it doesn't seem to be happening.
    Also, we have many different interests in charge of their little piece of the infrastructure, and inability to coordinate them for upgrades makes progress slow.
    Sometimes having this sort of infrastructure all under government control would make sense, but we prefer deregulation, and without a strong "business case" justification, the individual power companies just leave the old equipment in place.
     
  6. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Messages:
    15,852
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    The transmission infrastructure is all three phase, but in North America distribution to houses is pretty much all two phase. Typically only industrial parks have three phase power available to the end customer. The "last mile" is always the most expensive part of a network and therefore the least likely to be replaced.

    Hurricane damage is highly unlikely to be extensive enough to require replacing all the infrastructure; in these events a relatively modest number of single point failures cause widespread outages. Indeed if the damage was so extensive as to require replacing the infrastructure, huge numbers of customers would be without power for months or even years.
     
  7. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,761
    Location:
    Bradford on Avon, UK
    That's also true in the UK...
     
  8. Talkredius

    Talkredius Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    230
    Location:
    Hueckelhoven, Germany
    +Talkredius.
    1 Phase is like having a huge bottle of good and cold beer but only a thimble for drinking the beer
     
  9. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    4,822
    Location:
    Middelburg, The Netherlands
    We can have this discussion over and over, to be realistic:

    * 1-Phase: North America, Canada and some parts of the UK
    * 3-Phase: Mainland Europe

    NL, DE, BE are all deploying three-phase chargers along the road, so the Model S should take advantage of that.

    Like I said before, let's wait until October 1st, I'm more then happy to ask this question to the available Tesla staff, they will have the definitive answer I guess (hope...)
     
  10. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2009
    Messages:
    4,424
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Tesla recently mentioned their "Charge Anywhere" philosophy. So I am sure they'll do their best to support 3-phase in Europe, and regarding 44kW, probably in so far as cost-per-car allows it (or otherwise if it can be done as an option). So far Tesla appears to do its best to support everything, while the focus is currently bringing the Model S to market.
     
  11. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2006
    Messages:
    15,914
    Location:
    Stanford, California
    This thread was split off by one of the other moderators since Eberhard had yet again hijacked a thread to talk about 3-phase. I actually had to argue against a ban since he's been warned several times.

    While I agree about the merits of 3-phase, it does not have to be rehashed in every thread.
     
  12. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    8,572
    Location:
    Winchester, UK
    It's not quite. You will find 3 phase on poles or in the street just about everywhere in the UK except very rural locations. The drop to the house is then typically 1 phase with groups of houses balanced across the phases. However, apartment blocks are normally fed with three phase as are some large houses. Getting three phase installed to a house is normally as simple as asking for a supply for electric heating.

    In the US I understand the 3 phase is one level back, i.e. upstream of the local transformer.
     
  13. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,141
    Location:
    Germany
    i dont understand whats wrong giving an advice about installing a 3-phase socket in the garage when available.
     
  14. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    950
    Location:
    Fredrikstad, Norway
    Personally I don't see much point in fast home charging. I would be happy with the Leafs 3.3kW charger myself. Lack of CHAdeMO though, that's a real deal breaker.

    I am actually installing an EVSE soon, LCS-25 single phase 20A. If I swap the Leaf for a Model S, that's what I'll have and use.
     
  15. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Messages:
    15,852
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    True. I've used 70A charging at home occasionally, but for the most part I charge at 40 amps and it's more than fast enough.
     
  16. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,761
    Location:
    Bradford on Avon, UK
    I've also used 70A charging at home occasionally, but for the most part I charge at 24 or 32 amps. Not sure that would always be enough for the Model S though...
     
  17. Jaff

    Jaff Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    3,007
    Location:
    Grimsby, Canada
    Same here, but, I have had a few occasions where I was quite happy to top off my range at 70 amp (for unexpected trips) and be able to leave with a full charge earlier than later,,,

     
  18. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,141
    Location:
    Germany
    I have a 32A 3-phase socket installed in my garage. Its nice to be able to charge concurrent on different phases it when i have another Tesla Owner as guest.
     
  19. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Messages:
    15,852
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Yes, it is handy, just not essential. I think there's three things that I have found 70A useful for:

    1. If I want to go on a road trip, I charge in standard overnight, then when I get up I set it to Range and 70A and go have breakfast. By the time I'm ready to go it's just finished a full Range Mode charge. This minimizes the battery degradation by limiting the duration of charge > 90%. That said, to date I've only done three road trips requiring Range mode.

    2. Once I had to go on a inter-city trip in the late afternoon, but didn't need Range mode. I returned home briefly and topped up the Standard mode charge before I left.

    3. Tesla Toronto has occasionally brought up a Roadster for test drives, and when they do I let them use my HPC. I'm always happy to help, and besides I've got the only HPC in town!

    Other than that, I probably would never notice if my charging was limited to 30A.

    I suppose higher current might be more useful for the Model S. It's a larger car and takes more power for the same distance.
     
  20. Talkredius

    Talkredius Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    230
    Location:
    Hueckelhoven, Germany
    In my case, if I would use the Roadster only as a commuter car it would be true too. I would know the distance I want to drive every day at least one month in advance :)
    But I'm using it as a company car, so there are days where I arrive at 22:00 and want to leave at 05:00. And with the Model S the time for charging would be to short, HPC isn't an (legal) option, from the grid supplier point everything above 32 A has to be 3-phase => 3-phase charging is needed, or to be correct, fast charging,

    Chademo would be good for public charging stations. But I heard rumors, that Chademo fast charging stations are quite expensive ( may be only at the moment ? ), 20.000 EUR for a iMiev station.

    So this fast charging stations (HPC/Chademo) wouldn't be an option for average hotels too, at least not in Germany, because there are not enough EVs here, and the first mass EVs would be cars with low range, nobody will make tours with overnight stays in hotels with these cars.

    But every hotel has at least [email protected] A = 10 kW, most of them also [email protected] And many of them can be convinced to install 1 oder 2 [email protected] sockets.
    And if they are hard to convince we will send TRON to these hotels , he will be successful, I'm sure of that :biggrin:

    => see his Tesla goes East tour
    Tesla goes east - Charge hotels - where you can charge your e-car vehicle

    or see it from this point : if Model S will have 3 phase charging we would have overnight round about > 602 HPCs installed (RWE , EON, Vattenfall, Drehstromnetz + 2 in my garage, 3 phase 32 A charging points):love:

    okay may be I'm a little bit off topic here but we are in the Off Topic section here :wink:
     

Share This Page