I think it was more a side effect of needing to mine or make a fuel and oxidizer on Mars, and that he could do it by taking water and CO2 and some solar-based energy to make CH4 and O2. I'm guessing that building it here on Earth could be a way to perfect and automate the process before sending it to Mars, or perhaps the reverse, using the Mars program to develop the technology we could then deploy here on Earth. Chicken, meet Egg.
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Electric planes
- Thread starter doug
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- Electric Vehicles
Will it be affordable? The devil's in the details, especially with Musk and his verbiage. His Instagram uses the words "full fare economy" as a price point for the rocket. I've gotten into arguments with people on reddit over what those words mean.
My interpretation is a non-discounted economy seat on an airplane. I'm headed to Asia in May next year. I'd paid around $700 roundtrip. If the SpaceX rocket is competing at that price point, then splendid. People on reddit have been insisting to me that Musk is referring to the more expensive coach tickets that are >$1000 one-way that only provide the privilege of being able to pay the airline another princely sum of money to change details of the reservation or upgrade seats.
At that point, IMHO, Musk should have just said this is competing with business/first class tickets. Joe vacationer going on week long vacations or more will save the money and take the 15 hour plane ride; people whose time is actually money will spend the extra cost on the rocket.
I haven't even begun to discuss my skepticism towards Musk getting the regulatory approval to operate. I can think of a couple countries that wouldn't be excited about an American businessman developing what is essentially precision ICBM technology aimed straight for their cities. Rockets are also loud (source: have heard launches) - no way that SpaceX will be able to have the launch/landing pads within visual range of the NYC/Shanghai skyline, save a fundamental leap in quieter rocket technology.
Hah. Snort. Giggle. Break out into a full chuckle. Segue to full out belly laugh.
Maybe put a silencer on it. Like a sniper rifle.
ROTFLMAO.
Renewable methane production is more energy intensive than renewable hydrogen production - thereby undermining any argument to not use it in cars. Elon didn't mention any frequency of flights for this, but the implicating was a lot.
Anyway, back to the electric planes...
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Electric regional plane due in 2022:
Boeing-backed, electric-hybrid airliner set to hit market in 2022
Interesting that Tesla gets mentioned twice in the article:
"Electric-vehicle batteries, such as those made by Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) and Panasonic Corp (6752.T), would power the motor. "
"Zunum has no commitment to Tesla or Panasonic."
So the plane operating costs are 20% of a small jet, flies at 25,000 feet and 340 mph. Game changer for regional airports.
Clearly whomever can make very energy dense batteries could make a fortune supplying batteries to these planes. The market size relative to cars is pretty small though. Seems like the big losers in this scenario are regional jet makers who could lose market share when someone else builds a plane that costs 80% less to run. Not as fast as a jet, but 50% to 60% as fast.
RT
Boeing-backed, electric-hybrid airliner set to hit market in 2022
Interesting that Tesla gets mentioned twice in the article:
"Electric-vehicle batteries, such as those made by Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) and Panasonic Corp (6752.T), would power the motor. "
"Zunum has no commitment to Tesla or Panasonic."
So the plane operating costs are 20% of a small jet, flies at 25,000 feet and 340 mph. Game changer for regional airports.
Clearly whomever can make very energy dense batteries could make a fortune supplying batteries to these planes. The market size relative to cars is pretty small though. Seems like the big losers in this scenario are regional jet makers who could lose market share when someone else builds a plane that costs 80% less to run. Not as fast as a jet, but 50% to 60% as fast.
RT
Interesting, but 2022 is a tad optimistic. Aviation industry is prone to many delays in the bringing out of new aircraft, from small general aviation craft to massive airliners. Certification by civil aviation authorities takes up to two years. I have also yet to hear about any airlines expressing interest or committing to purchase units. Planes like the Boeing 787 had commitments to purchase years before the original on-paper launch.
easyJet is on the record saying that they want all-electric short haul (under 300 mile route) 737-sized airliners.
Electric airplane startup and easyJet join force to bring all-electric aircraft to market
Ulmo
Active Member
I found your layman terms to be far more confusing than your non-layman terms.
I think the Sun Flyer 4 is supposed to sell for around $350,000, which may turn out to be a bit less expensive than the purchase price of a new Cessna 172, even before you account for the fuel savings...
Would it? It's not a drop in replacement for existing jet airplanes, and it also not something you can conveniently use to store your renewable energy in the fall to use during the winter. I think using the LanzaTech process to make Jet-A equivalent fuel would be more useful than methane for both applications.
voyager
Active Member
Yes.
An awful lot of natural gas is already stored. Over 10% of total usage.
There's a lot of pipeline.
We use a lot of it, not just for heat but also in the chemical industry.
We can also generate large quantities of biogas which can be cleaned and used along with natural gas..
It's used for a lot of electricity generation.
While we don't _want_ to store the electricity, and despite the wasteful nature of the conversion process, methane's a pretty good candidate for allowing overbuild to help deal with some of the seasonal challenges.
While it's a lossy step on from hydrogen production, methane's a lot easier to manage and use.
There's an ep of Nova airing on 1/31 on Solar Impulse. See The Impossible Flight — NOVA | PBS. My TiVo's set to record it.
A New Lithium-Metal Battery Takes Flight in Drones discusses batteries that appear to have better energy density. Is this energy density good enough to convert Southwest Airlines to batteries? Do these batteries have adequate longevity etc?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
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