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I think the point is that the tiny niche market of very small short-hop planes is the only one where electric planes have a hope of competing. That and the hobbyist market, where factors other than cost and load weight predominate.

Very true, but not the point of this portion of the discussion.


Here is a recap:

The main problem with batteries is, landing weight is the same as take-off weight.

Which means EV planes should weigh close to the weight of an ICE plane with empty tanks. I am not even sure today we are anywhere close to that in terms of gravimetric density for even the highest energy density LiOn battery with Co & Ni.

The above statement is true and highlights the problem with the low energy density of batteries with respect to aviation.

Then, several commenters tried to say this person was wrong. Note the phrasing with "all" and "always" as well as leading off with "what are you talking about?"

What are you talking about? All the airplanes I have flown are designed to land with a full tank.

Or look up any regional turboprop specifications, maximum landing weight is generally very close to maximum takeoff weight. As in 95% full tank.

That is correct, as an Aerospace Engineer that has certified multiple platforms and systems that are directly applicable to this, we always end up certifying max landing weight very close to max TO weight except with special conditions. It's not as efficient really because the lighter an aircraft gets through it's flight plan the lower AOA needed to maintain lift and therefor the CoD reduced make for more efficient flying, but it can be accounted for just fine.

So I simply stated some facts agreeing with the original commenter:

"The best selling Jet Airliner of all time is the 737. Currently, the most common example is the Next Generation 737-800.

Max Takeoff weight 174,000 pounds.

Max Landing weight 146,000 pounds.

That is a SIGNIFICANT difference"

-------------------

Nothing is as black and white as the people claiming the original poster was wrong would have you believe. There are many, many aircraft where the takeoff weight is significantly higher than the landing weight and the design exploits this efficiency at cruise. Those aircraft also happen to be some of the most successful of all time.

Everyone will have to design to a new paradigm with battery electric airplanes but this can't be denied.
 
Now you are just cherrypicking a flying Porsche sold to doctors and lawyers.

When it comes to commercial aircraft that have to make economic sense the distance between your examples and a successful aircraft design is enormous.

747-100SR.....29 sold
ATR................400 sold

vs

737.................10,000 sold



.
Well, I have been working on an electric aircraft design for a few years already and I wish I had known this earlier.

Thanks for allowing me to learn something new, and back to the drawing board I guess.
 
The main problem with batteries is, landing weight is the same as take-off weight.

The above statement is true and highlights the problem with the low energy density of batteries with respect to aviation.

I disagree that that is the main problem with battery airplanes. It may very well be a problem with some kinds of airplanes, but I contend that the main problem is the weight of the batteries. If the batteries are too heavy for takeoff, then it's moot that they weigh the same at landing. And if the batteries are so heavy and so costly that the whole project is too expensive, the fact that they weigh the same at landing as at takeoff is also a moot point.

We're never going to see a commercial passenger plane with anywhere near the range and passenger capacity of a 737, so it's moot that the 737 has a lower maximum landing weight than its maximum takeoff weight.

If electric planes compete at all, it will be in the small-plane short-hop market, where not an awful lot of fuel is burned during the flight, and in the hobbyist market, where buyers' considerations are entirely different.
 
I disagree that that is the main problem with battery airplanes. It may very well be a problem with some kinds of airplanes, but I contend that the main problem is the weight of the batteries. If the batteries are too heavy for takeoff, then it's moot that they weigh the same at landing. And if the batteries are so heavy and so costly that the whole project is too expensive, the fact that they weigh the same at landing as at takeoff is also a moot point.

I don't think you have to disagree, they are partly the same problem!

It's just that everyone is viewing this through the lens of 100 years of petrol powered airplane design where fuel and payload fractions had made leaps from wood and fabric, to aluminum, to the composite era but were known quantities.

This causes distractions when people try to equate those fractions with batteries and motors, but the real issues are energy density vs weight. While electric motors are awesome and light and low maintenance.....batteries just can't beat petrol yet purely on energy density.
 
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Not sure that EV aircraft need to compete directly on performance. If it flies, it flies. Several benefits:
  1. Passengers will pay more for less - eco
  2. Regulations - quieter, eco etc.
  3. Opex costs will be reduced massively - solar energy charging etc.
Anyway Elon will find a way to provide more for less.
 
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Not sure that EV aircraft need to compete directly on performance. If it flies, it flies. Several benefits:
  1. Passengers will pay more for less - eco
  2. Regulations - quieter, eco etc.
  3. Opex costs will be reduced massively - solar energy charging etc.
Anyway Elon will find a way to provide more for less.

1. True----affluent passengers only though
2. Not necessarily quieter, especially if props
3. That is going to take massive solar arrays

.
 
... the real issues are energy density vs weight. While electric motors are awesome and light and low maintenance.....batteries just can't beat petrol yet purely on energy density.

Now we agree. :)

Not sure that EV aircraft need to compete directly on performance. If it flies, it flies. Several benefits:
  1. Passengers will pay more for less - eco
  2. Regulations - quieter, eco etc.
  3. Opex costs will be reduced massively - solar energy charging etc.
Anyway Elon will find a way to provide more for less.

Passengers will not pay more to fly electric. Rich tree-huggers will. What are they, maybe a tenth of a percent of airline passengers? Probably less. By and large, the mass of airline passengers care about lost luggage, delayed or cancelled flights, and the cost of tickets. And they shop for the cheapest tickets above all else.

Regulations are written by industry lobbyists. Quieter is good for the people on the ground near airports. Regulators don't care about them.

True, electric planes don't require petroleum, but the U.S. imports almost none of its oil.

Once we actually have excess renewable electricity (in a few decades from now) batteries will still be too heavy to put in planes. A better use will be to make synthetic jet fuel with that green electricity, and power planes on that. Weight is the crucial factor.

Elon will find ways to promote himself, promise things he can't deliver, and make money. He might conceivably even find a way to make Twitter even worse than it is now, if he ends up being forced to buy the company as he promised.
 
Also I am hearing noises again on hydrogen fuel cells being a good option for planes.

Don’t know if weight will be a problem or not. I know end to end efficiency will not come close to batteries, let’s not even debate that. But perhaps H2 packs more energy in less weight and volume?
 
Also I am hearing noises again on hydrogen fuel cells being a good option for planes.

Don’t know if weight will be a problem or not. I know end to end efficiency will not come close to batteries, let’s not even debate that. But perhaps H2 packs more energy in less weight and volume?
It does, especially liquid hydrogen (cryogenics aka rocket technology). It is technically feasible for long range, unlike battery powered aircraft.

Pressurized hydrogen on the other hand incurs a weight penalty, and especially a volume penalty, that makes it only marginally better than battery powered aircraft, so it is a dead end long term as battery energy densities keep improving over the years with no end in sight, and prices dropping consistently.

Liquid hydrogen works much better in terms of tank size and weight, and also brings interesting weight saving synergies by the way of thermal management and supraconducting cables and motors. This is what Airbus is banking on for the long term, and they are clear that this is a multi-billion couple-of-decades endeavor, from engineering, certification, production and infrastructure standpoints. It is also high risk financially as it could be superceded economically and environmentally by synthetic fuels which is what Boeing is banking on.

Talking to certification authorities about this topic raises the interesting issue of means of compliance dealing with cryogenics, and no one should expect anything to hit the market at least 10 years from now, and more likely 15+.

ZeroAvia and Universal Hydrogen are both totally delusional on when their products will be certified and at what cost, the first skirting on a regular basis with false representations, perhaps knowingly but I will leave them the benefit of the doubt.

Interestingly, there is nearly zero (serious) technical due diligence done by most airlines and venture funds who sign up for this. It's more like a "we have to do something" or "jumping on the bandwagon" attitude and as an engineer I would say it raises serious ethics questions.
 
As I pointed out in a different thread:

Energy density generally refers to energy per unit volume (WH/liter). This is also often referred to as volumetric energy density. Hydrogen actually has quite poor volumetric energy density, even if liquified. Definitely poor compared with gasoline. Given that the biggest user of energy in an automobile or an airplane is drag, extra volume tends to cause more air drag, making it a big (bad) deal.
Gravimetric energy density (AKA Specific Energy) refers to energy per unit mass (WH/gram). For this, Hydrogen is great. In fact, it has the highest specific energy of any chemical energy through oxidation (burning, fuel cell, etc). This is definitely important but other factors weigh in against it. For example, while the hydrogen may be light, a strong tank that can contain it in the event of an accident, will be fairly heavy, especially if it must be kept under high pressure to try to account for the volumetric energy density limitation.

The poor volumetric energy density of H2, even liquid H2 actually makes it a challenge for aircraft even though it Specific Energy is good as the volume required to store it comes out as additional drag which is bad for aircraft.
It probably can be done, however a hydrocarbon fuel will probably be easier.
 
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I presume that if H2 were good for airplanes it would have been used by now. But I am curious as to why H2 seems to be a preferred fuel for space rockets while hydrocarbons are preferred for cars, trucks, and airplanes. Why is liquid H2 better than jet fuel for rockets? Is it because a rocket needs so much more fuel per minute and delivering H2 is easier than delivering hydrocarbon fuel to the engine? Or the fact that it all gets used so quickly that keeping it cold is less of a problem? Or is it because H2 is better when you have to carry the oxidizer because atmospheric oxygen won't be available? Or...? ? ?
 
I presume that if H2 were good for airplanes it would have been used by now. But I am curious as to why H2 seems to be a preferred fuel for space rockets while hydrocarbons are preferred for cars, trucks, and airplanes. Why is liquid H2 better than jet fuel for rockets? Is it because a rocket needs so much more fuel per minute and delivering H2 is easier than delivering hydrocarbon fuel to the engine? Or the fact that it all gets used so quickly that keeping it cold is less of a problem? Or is it because H2 is better when you have to carry the oxidizer because atmospheric oxygen won't be available? Or...? ? ?
If you go to Everyday Astronaut's YouTube Channel there are videos that explain the various compromises used to power rockets (and a lot of other interesting information).
 
But I am curious as to why H2 seems to be a preferred fuel for space rockets
It's not preferred by SpaceX who use kerosene or methane. One large negative of H2 is losses:
For example, the rocket engines of each shuttle flight burn about 500,000 gallons of cold liquid hydrogen with another 239,000 gallons depleted by storage boil off and transfer operations.
 
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Another reason electirc aircraft at best will never compete against a fuel powered aircraft: energy storage capacity

Fuel can occupy every square inch of a storage area (eg the wing).
Batteries will always have some space it cannot fill due come complex shapes.

I can envision light aircraft being functionl for short flights, EV commercial is not possible (short of a fundamental breakthrough technology)
 
I presume that if H2 were good for airplanes it would have been used by now. But I am curious as to why H2 seems to be a preferred fuel for space rockets while hydrocarbons are preferred for cars, trucks, and airplanes. Why is liquid H2 better than jet fuel for rockets? Is it because a rocket needs so much more fuel per minute and delivering H2 is easier than delivering hydrocarbon fuel to the engine? Or the fact that it all gets used so quickly that keeping it cold is less of a problem? Or is it because H2 is better when you have to carry the oxidizer because atmospheric oxygen won't be available? Or...? ? ?
Liquid hydrogen is not preferred for rocket first stage applications, and it’s not really a cryogenic issue. The first stage‘s job is to get the rest of the stack out of the atmosphere, and so the first stage spends most of its time in the atmosphere, where aerodynamic drag is a major player. LH2 has a low density compared to RP-1 (rocket grade kerosene) or liquid methane, so you need much greater tank volume to hold enough LH2 for the first stage, which means a physically larger rocket, which means (among other things) more drag (mostly of the skin friction variety) and therefore less net efficiency. A LOX-LH2 rocket engine has significantly greater thrust efficiency (e.g., specific impulse) than a keralox or methalox rocket engine, but when you assemble that into an actual first stage, the hydrogen-oxygen first stage will underperform relative to the keralox or methalox first stage.

For the second stage, which Is pretty much out of the sensible atmosphere when it fires up, LH2/LOX is far and away the preferred approach, because you’re paying much less penalty due to the extra size of the LH2 tank (because no aerodynamic drag to speak of) and the improved specific impulse really makes a difference. But for a first stage, it’s almost always a bad choice.
 
I presume that if H2 were good for airplanes it would have been used by now. But I am curious as to why H2 seems to be a preferred fuel for space rockets while hydrocarbons are preferred for cars, trucks, and airplanes. Why is liquid H2 better than jet fuel for rockets?
Because specific impulse (which is related to exhaust velocity) matters for rockets. Rockets burn fuel and throw the burnt gases overboard, and the thrust comes from throwing the hot, expanding gases overboard. So you want something that burns not and leaves the nozzle at high velocity; the higher velocity it leaves the nozzle, the more thrust it produces. You could throw a ton of material out the back of that nozzle but if it only leaves the nozzle at 0.5 m/s, it's barely going to produce any thrust, whereas if that same ton of material leaves the nozzle at 100 m/s, it produces a lot more thrust. And LOX/LH2 has the highest specific impulse, at 381s: Basics of Space Flight: Rocket Propellants The RS-25 (space shuttle main engines) rocket engines on the space shuttle that burned LOX/LH2 from the external tank actually had exhaust velocities of in excess of 4,000 m/s! The solid rocket boosters didn't use LOX/LH2 of course, they used a fuel and oxidizer that was a lot more dense but had a much lower specific impulse. Their job was to get the shuttle out of the atmosphere as quickly as possible, while representing as little atmospheric drag (which relates to volume more than exhaust velocity) as possible, and then detach and let the RS-25 engines do their job.

With a rocket, you want as little mass (fuel and oxidizer) as possible to produce as much thrust as possible, because carrying more fuel and oxidizer makes the rocket more massive, which requires even more fuel and oxidizer to carry the extra fuel and oxidizer.

None of these constraints apply to air-breathing jet engines. Why? Because air-breathing jet engines can throw stuff out the back that didn't come from what was being carried onboard the vehicle. You've probably noticed that engine manufacturers have been making bigger and bigger turbofans, with larger and larger bypass ratios. This is why the A320neo has a larger engine nacelle than the original A320, and why the Boeing 737 MAX has larger nacelles than the original Boeing 737 and the 737-800 and 737-900. Actually, since the 737 was developed, the nacelles on the 738 and 739 had gotten so large that they had to be made in a sort of oblong shape that looks smashed on the bottom so as not to get too close to the ground. When Boeing tried to use an even higher bypass ratio in the 737 MAX, the engine nacelles were so large that they could no longer be mounted in the original position, which required them to be repositioned on the wing. This in turn caused the aircraft to pitch up when power was applied, and Boeing created a system called the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) to push the nose back down in case this happened. You're probably familiar with what happened after Boeing made multiple mistakes in how this system was implemented. Anyway, air-breathing jet engines use a fan attached to the turbine to grab onto atmospheric air and force it backward, creating additional thrust. This is something that rocket engines, which operate outside of an atmosphere, cannot do, because if they had spinning fans, the fans would have nothing to grab onto. In a rocket, all of your thrust comes from the burnt gases, whereas in an air-breathing jet engine, most of the thrust actually comes from the fan.

Personally, I think they're paying too much attention to how much carbon emissions come out of the engines and not focusing on the entire system as a whole. People have burned wood for centuries for energy and this didn't create a problem because the carbon in the wood originally came from the atmosphere. Likewise, burning jet fuel isn't a problem so long as the jet fuel's carbon comes from the atmosphere. As long as you used renewable energy sources to make the jet fuel (like solar and wind power), and the carbon in the jet fuel is processed from organic material that took its carbon from the atmosphere (biogas, etc.), then you can burn carbon neutral jet fuel.
 
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