Electric V Hydrogen

[Techno-phile]

We have our first two CCS2 in WA in Dunsborough and Busselton.

We should be getting two 350kW CCS2 from ChargeFox (part Arena Federal funding), probably one in Perth and one South of Perth.

Also UWA are going to install a 150kW CCS2 at their new Electrical Engineering building (with some Tesla HPWCs capable of AC 22kW).

And we hope for at least a Perth Tesla Supercharger, of course.

Finally the State MOU committee report has been finalised to the satisfaction of the Hydrogen Council (at last), and I am chasing the date of tabling this in Parliament.
The report includes various recommendations for networks of DC chargers in the State, the best being 70 pairs of DC CCS2 chargers every 200kms on WA main roads.
The locations have been analysed for traffic flow and local power availability. Mostly 50kW, some 150kW and some with Solar and battery buffering. I have been working with the MOU consultant ever since my submission to the Federal Senate committee requesting such a network.
When the report has been tabled we need to ensure that all or at least part of it is actioned!

 

[Chuq]

to the satisfaction of the Hydrogen Council (at last)

That all sounds like brilliant news! Good local activism paying dividends..

... except, what about that bit quoted above? What are they getting out of it?

 

[paulp]

Keep being positive, order a model 3 like you have already done, take it to every car show possible, drive it around Oz like many have done now including @Murbs, continually tweet and remind your state politicians EVs are good for WA like @Jays200 continually does, attend AEVA meetings, attend Tesla Owners Club Western Australia drive days and encourage as many current and future EV drivers to do the same, individuals can make a small difference, collectively we can make a bigger difference.

Alternatively get your government to invest in a big battery and make it conditional upon other tesla investment. It got SA a couple of superchargers

 

[Techno-phile]

That all sounds like brilliant news! Good local activism paying dividends..

... except, what about that bit quoted above? What are they getting out of it?

Yeah, unfortunately FCEVs were included in the original Memorandum of Understanding with the EV council, and the Hydrogen Council has been determined to amend the consultant's report to be more positive about Hydrogen. Those negotiations have delayed the tabling of the report for several months, but I am assured that a form of words has been agreed. We'll see when the report is tabled.

 

[Vostok]

While I see people lamenting lack of attention from Tesla with respect to cars, it seems Australia got preferential treatment when it came to Powerwalls. Musk even stated that there was a better financial case for them in Australia (high utility rates) and so shipments were focused there.

Yes, we can at least celebrate our Powerwall priority. I’ve read about people in the USA being on the waitlist for more than a year for a Powerwall.

My solar installer does so many of them they import about 200 per quarter so basically they are in stock and ready for installation within weeks. Mine arrived so fast the building site called my house wasn’t ready yet for it. I had to wait another 2 months!

 

[Murbs]

That all sounds like brilliant news! Good local activism paying dividends..

... except, what about that bit quoted above? What are they getting out of it?

What the Hydrogen Council want is a hydrogen filling station at every fast DC charger. They dislike the fact that the fast DC chargers make Hydrogen filling stations look bad because a hydrolysing hydrogen station costs more than 10 times as much as a fast DC charger station.

 

[baillies]

What the Hydrogen Council want is a hydrogen filling station at every fast DC charger. They dislike the fact that the fast DC chargers make Hydrogen filling stations look bad because a hydrolysing hydrogen station costs more than 10 times as much as a fast DC charger station.

I really hope they delay (indefinitely) putting hydrogen next to EV chargers. One reason for EV is it is significantly safer than hydrogen as well as cheaper and more efficient.

https://insideevs.com/news/354223/hydrogen-fueling-station-explodes

 

[Murbs]

The fundamental problem is that Hydrogen cars as misleadingly called Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles (FCEV). This wrongly lumps them together with Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEV) and Battery Electric Vehicles (BEV).

If the same logic were applied to trains, then most Diesel powered trains would be rightly called Liquid Fueled Electric Vehicles (LFEV) since they are powered by electric traction motors energised by Diesel generators.

 

[conman]

The fundamental problem is that Hydrogen cars as misleadingly called Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles (FCEV). This wrongly lumps them together with Plug In Electric Vehicles (PHEV) and Battery Electric Vehicles (BEV).

If the same logic were applied to trains, then most Diesel powered trains would be rightly called Liquid Fueled Electric Vehicles (LFEV) since they are powered by electric traction motors energised by Diesel generators.

I don't think it's a fair comparison when hydrogen fuel cells only emit water as a waste product, unlike diesel electric generators. That said, I don't think hydrogen is a logical way forward for the bulk of our transport, but may have a niche for ultra long haul rapid filling road trains because of its fast filling and light weight compared to BEVs. The thing is that once you have DC charging infrastructure in place it is there until it fails. It takes no further energy to "send the electrons" to the charging stations. Hydrogen still requires all the crazy transport and storage issues associated with existing fuel solutions so I'm glad to not see it take off.

 

[Shock-On-T]

Hydrogen would have been the best solution for sustainable transport, if battery technology hadn't advanced so well.
But we are now at the point (>200kW charging cars) that it is utterly absurd to continue pushing for hydrogen. It's barely an inconvenience on a road trip to charge at 90kW. With V3 superchargers and 350kW CCS2 stations it's game over for hydrogen, at least in the personal transport space.

I'm reminded of that Simpsons episode where the roast pig is flung through the air and Homer is saying "it's still good, it's still good".

 

[baillies]

I don't think it's a fair comparison when hydrogen fuel cells only emit water as a waste product, unlike diesel electric generators. That said, I don't think hydrogen is a logical way forward for the bulk of our transport, but may have a niche for ultra long haul rapid filling road trains because of its fast filling and light weight compared to BEVs. The thing is that once you have DC charging infrastructure in place it is there until it fails. It takes no further energy to "send the electrons" to the charging stations. Hydrogen still requires all the crazy transport and storage issues associated with existing fuel solutions so I'm glad to not see it take off.

It is worse than existing fuel as it needs to be highly compressed, so essentially we have bombs just waiting to explode. At least there is no oil and risk of fire is low but if a car catches fire, or worse a truck, then it is potentially very dangerous as indicated in the article above.

YouTube has lots of videos of gas cars exploding and hiydrogen is stored at much higher pressures so could be worse. At least hydrogen rises unlike LPG/CNG which stays close to the ground though.

 

[Shock-On-T]

It is worse than existing fuel as it needs to be highly compressed, so essentially we have bombs just waiting to explode. At least there is no oil and risk of fire is low but if a car catches fire, or worse a truck, then it is potentially very dangerous as indicated in the article above.

YouTube has lots of videos of gas cars exploding and hiydrogen is stored at much higher pressures so could be worse. At least hydrogen rises unlike LPG/CNG which stays close to the ground though.

Hydrogen doesn't have to be stored in a tank in the car like LPG, it's "soaked" into a lattice-like material. Each pocket is under pressure, but not as a whole. Basically safe.
But transport and storage is good old high pressure tank, and explosion is catastrophic.

The bigger problem with hydrogen is that the cheapest way to make it is to bust it out of gasoline, and everyone will use the cheapest way. You could make it by splitting H2O with renewable electricity, but people don't. And besides, if you're sitting on a bunch of renewable electricity you mind find it a whole lot easier to plug in into a battery than to split hydrogen, transport hydrogen, store hydrogen, pump hydrogen into cars, etc etc.

 

[EcoCloudIT]

My father is involved in a think tank (Dr Donald MacRae) and how they’re producing Hydrogen “differently”...it’s a long read however it’s ingenious:

Extract:

Ammonia as Store of Renewable Energy

The Australian CSIRO breakthrough technology, projected to lower markedly the cost of producing hydrogen from ammonia, has greatly enlivened the prospects of using ammonia as a means of storing and transporting renewable energy.

See here:
HIAlba-IDEA – Imagining New Realities From Skye

 

[paulp]

Hydrogen doesn't have to be stored in a tank in the car like LPG, it's "soaked" into a lattice-like material. Each pocket is under pressure, but not as a whole. Basically safe.
But transport and storage is good old high pressure tank, and explosion is catastrophic.

The bigger problem with hydrogen is that the cheapest way to make it is to bust it out of gasoline, and everyone will use the cheapest way. You could make it by splitting H2O with renewable electricity, but people don't. And besides, if you're sitting on a bunch of renewable electricity you mind find it a whole lot easier to plug in into a battery than to split hydrogen, transport hydrogen, store hydrogen, pump hydrogen into cars, etc etc.

You dont need any fuel to transport electricity

 

[baillies]

Hydrogen doesn't have to be stored in a tank in the car like LPG, it's "soaked" into a lattice-like material. Each pocket is under pressure, but not as a whole. Basically safe.
But transport and storage is good old high pressure tank, and explosion is catastrophic.

The bigger problem with hydrogen is that the cheapest way to make it is to bust it out of gasoline, and everyone will use the cheapest way. You could make it by splitting H2O with renewable electricity, but people don't. And besides, if you're sitting on a bunch of renewable electricity you mind find it a whole lot easier to plug in into a battery than to split hydrogen, transport hydrogen, store hydrogen, pump hydrogen into cars, etc etc.

Do you have a reference for testing of this “basically safe” tank in a vehicle fire?

 

[Shock-On-T]

It is worse than existing fuel as it needs to be highly compressed, so essentially we have bombs just waiting to explode. At least there is no oil and risk of fire is low but if a car catches fire, or worse a truck, then it is potentially very dangerous as indicated in the article above.

YouTube has lots of videos of gas cars exploding and hiydrogen is stored at much higher pressures so could be worse. At least hydrogen rises unlike LPG/CNG which stays close to the ground though.

Hydrogen doesn't have to be stored in a tank in the car like LPG, it's "soaked" into a lattice-like material. Each pocket is under pressure, but not as a whole. Basically safe.
But transport and storage is good old high pressure tank, and explosion is catastrophic.

The bigger problem with hydrogen is that the cheapest way to make it is to bust it out of gasoline, and everyone will use the cheapest way. You could make it by splitting H2O with renewable electricity, but people don't. And besides, if you're sitting on a bunch of renewable electricity you mind find it a whole lot easier to plug in into a battery than to split hydrogen, transport hydrogen, store hydrogen, pump hydrogen into cars, etc etc.

Do you have a reference for testing of this “basically safe” tank in a vehicle fire?

There are basically no mainstream production hydrogen vehicles, but as for storage:
LMGTFY

 

[Shock-On-T]

You dont need any fuel to transport electricity

Agreed, that's what makes electricity such a no-brainer.
I'm sitting in a room with a few electrical outlets as I type this (should be in bed). I have had a quick glance about, but don't see any hydrogen outlets. My street is also free of hydrogen pipes, but seems to have some wires fixed to wooden poles. If only there was a ready-made method of transporting energy, can't quite put my finger on it...

 

[Techno-phile]

What the Hydrogen Council want is a hydrogen filling station at every fast DC charger. They dislike the fact that the fast DC chargers make Hydrogen filling stations look bad because a hydrolysing hydrogen station costs more than 10 times as much as a fast DC charger station.

More like 6 Hydrogen stations on a truck route (not one at every DC charging location). But these could easily cost more than the entire DC charging network.

 

[Jays200]

There are no commercially available hydrogen cars in WA, let alone trucks. Let the trucks struggle along for a couple of years on poor infrastructure like we've had to with AC charging. The money is obviously better spent on DC fast charging atm.

 

[Jays200]

@Techno-phile how do you know this info for sure? Are you in receipt of a yet unpublished report from Prof Braunl from the University of Western Australia Renewal Energy Project?