Just wanted to introduce myself here. I am an electrical contractor that works in the Maryland/DC area for the most part. I am an electric car enthusiast who owns a plug in hybrid but am very interested in buying a Tesla in the near future. I do a lot of charger installs for the Tesla Destination program with 50+ to be completed by the end of this year. I joined to find out more about how people use the public charging infrastructure to better understand the needs of the end users. As an EV driver myself I think I have a better understanding of the specific needs of Tesla owners than most electricians but I am always open to learning more. Thanks
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Electrical Contractor from MD here
- Thread starter COlsen1
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Welcome. I'm not sure about other Tesla owners, but I don't really use public infrastructure much at all. I'll use a destination charger or other level 2 if it's convenient when I'll be parked for several hours on a trip (hotel, attraction I'll spend hours at,) but otherwise it's all at home or at Superchargers.
Welcome!
I don't know how well I represent the typical Tesla owner, but in more than 80,000 miles driven between two Model S's, I don't think we've used destination charging once. It's probably because our destinations tend to be the homes of family members or rental homes, not commercial establishments with destination chargers.
I don't know how well I represent the typical Tesla owner, but in more than 80,000 miles driven between two Model S's, I don't think we've used destination charging once. It's probably because our destinations tend to be the homes of family members or rental homes, not commercial establishments with destination chargers.
We have about 95,000 miles on our 2014 Model S. As annual Passholders at Disneyworld our most frequent use of level 2 chargers is at Epcot,Animal Kingdom and Magic Kingdom. (Hollywood Studios has none) They are pricey at $0.35 a kWh but are super convenient for us. Since we are typically in the park for 6 or more hours it is the difference between stopping at a Supercharger on the way home or driving directly. In my opinion a really good placement for level 2 chargers.
As you can tell by our mileage we do a lot of road trips. I seek out hotels and B&Bs with level 2 chargers , preferably Tesla HPWCs. If it is a Tesla there is a good chance it’s operable and probably not ICEd or occupied by another Tesla. In my experience other brands of level 2 chargers seem to often to be out of service. In most instances the most annoying and frequent occurrence is that hotel staff are clueless about trying to maintain the availability of the chargers due to ICE cars or even bad etiquette by other EV drivers hogging their charger. Typically B&B owners with Tesla HPWCs are very aware and go out of their way to make sure you get the charge you need.
One other item I’ll mention relative to destination charging. It is unfortunate that destinations where cars will be parked for more than a couple days do not install 110v/ 20a outlets. These would be places like resorts and airport parking where cars will probably be parked for several days and could easily get a full charge at 3 or 4 mph. I would think they would be relatively cheap to install compared to level 2 chargers.
As you can tell by our mileage we do a lot of road trips. I seek out hotels and B&Bs with level 2 chargers , preferably Tesla HPWCs. If it is a Tesla there is a good chance it’s operable and probably not ICEd or occupied by another Tesla. In my experience other brands of level 2 chargers seem to often to be out of service. In most instances the most annoying and frequent occurrence is that hotel staff are clueless about trying to maintain the availability of the chargers due to ICE cars or even bad etiquette by other EV drivers hogging their charger. Typically B&B owners with Tesla HPWCs are very aware and go out of their way to make sure you get the charge you need.
One other item I’ll mention relative to destination charging. It is unfortunate that destinations where cars will be parked for more than a couple days do not install 110v/ 20a outlets. These would be places like resorts and airport parking where cars will probably be parked for several days and could easily get a full charge at 3 or 4 mph. I would think they would be relatively cheap to install compared to level 2 chargers.
Where we tend to stay when traveling the most (Timeshare from the secondary market, WorldMark), both the Las Vegas Blvd and Anaheim CA locations have 120V outlets.
Las Vegas, they have many in each garage, but, we found despite being 120V 20amp outlets, if we draw more then 10-11 amps, the voltage drop is too much.
Anaheim has 120V 15 amp outlets, and drawing the full 12 amps is not a problem, no voltage drops.
Las Vegas we were not staying long enough to avoid having to picking up some miles at the supercharger before leaving. Our most recent Anaheim trip, we had no problems getting to 90+ % before we left, and making it to the Indio supercharger.
I really like the idea of pushing 120V 20 amp (with appropriate wiring) for true long term locations, such as airports, off airport parking, resorts, and even hotels.
120V 15/20amp keeps you from having mileage loss over night, and gains a bit of charge. Commercial properties pay a demand charge based on peak KW draw. The higher power the EV charging setup is, the more likely it is to boost the property into a higher demand charge. For this reason slow and steady is the way to go for long duration charging
Longer term load sharing EVSEs will be the way to go, especially if they can get interfaced to the building peak usage, and know when to lower draw to help keep the building from hitting a new "peak" demand.
-Harry
Las Vegas, they have many in each garage, but, we found despite being 120V 20amp outlets, if we draw more then 10-11 amps, the voltage drop is too much.
Anaheim has 120V 15 amp outlets, and drawing the full 12 amps is not a problem, no voltage drops.
Las Vegas we were not staying long enough to avoid having to picking up some miles at the supercharger before leaving. Our most recent Anaheim trip, we had no problems getting to 90+ % before we left, and making it to the Indio supercharger.
I really like the idea of pushing 120V 20 amp (with appropriate wiring) for true long term locations, such as airports, off airport parking, resorts, and even hotels.
120V 15/20amp keeps you from having mileage loss over night, and gains a bit of charge. Commercial properties pay a demand charge based on peak KW draw. The higher power the EV charging setup is, the more likely it is to boost the property into a higher demand charge. For this reason slow and steady is the way to go for long duration charging
Longer term load sharing EVSEs will be the way to go, especially if they can get interfaced to the building peak usage, and know when to lower draw to help keep the building from hitting a new "peak" demand.
-Harry
@COlsen1,
Welcome to TMC. It is good to have more people like yourself that are experienced in electrical work.
Perhaps you will offer help to new buyers deciding what kind of circuit they should install for charging their car. It takes knowledge about what is cost effective for their situation, and what is required or desired for their daily usage of the car. Most electricians can not help with the latter, and often just quote a 100 A HPWC install regardless of the cost to add a 100 A circuit.
When on trips, I always search for hotels or B&B with Tesla destination chargers, or other L2 charging. I want to start my day "fully charged" (usually 90% on trips, or 100% when needed, just before I leave).
GSP
Welcome to TMC. It is good to have more people like yourself that are experienced in electrical work.
Perhaps you will offer help to new buyers deciding what kind of circuit they should install for charging their car. It takes knowledge about what is cost effective for their situation, and what is required or desired for their daily usage of the car. Most electricians can not help with the latter, and often just quote a 100 A HPWC install regardless of the cost to add a 100 A circuit.
When on trips, I always search for hotels or B&B with Tesla destination chargers, or other L2 charging. I want to start my day "fully charged" (usually 90% on trips, or 100% when needed, just before I leave).
GSP
I appreciate the warm welcome everyone. Most of my installs are at hotels with a few restaurants thrown in the mix when the location warrants.
I tend to agree with most of everyones comments above. With ranges of EVs getting better and Tesla's in particular in the 200+ range I truly believe that the vast majority of charging will be done at home. Sure public charging is nice but for the most part it isn't needed in most situations.
On the other hand as BEVs get more mainstream there are people dipping their toes in the water that do not have a place that they can charge at home. Condos/Apartments are painfully slow in adding EV equipment and there are countless people that live in homes without off-street parking. For these people even an hour or two of high-amperage charging while they are out doing their normal errands can be enough without having to go to DC fast-charging or Superchargers.
As far as the outlets I agree that Level 1 charging has its place for sure. Airports and other long-term parking are great places to have dedicated 120v outlets installed. A lot of facilities do not understand what EV drivers need and will often just add an outlet in their parking area advertise that they have EV charging facilities.
As for new car buyers my recommendation is to install individual conductors in 1" conduit rather than use romex. The reasoning is that THHN wire (which is the type of wire you will be pulling inside the conduit) goes by the 75 degree wiring column typically on an ampacity chart vs the 60 degree column for romex and allows additional conductors to be added for additional charging under the right circumstances. Unless the run is long I typically install #3 copper for a HPWC and than will install it onto whatever the max ampacity the customers service can handle and set the dip switches accordingly. When paying to have an electrician come out, you are paying mostly for labor, with the the materials typically being the cheaper part of the bill. I try and pull the largest wire size I can so that if the customer decides to upgrade their service to 400amp (or more) they do not have to re-do the HPWC wiring.
Sorry for the long winded post, I promise they wont all be novels.
I tend to agree with most of everyones comments above. With ranges of EVs getting better and Tesla's in particular in the 200+ range I truly believe that the vast majority of charging will be done at home. Sure public charging is nice but for the most part it isn't needed in most situations.
On the other hand as BEVs get more mainstream there are people dipping their toes in the water that do not have a place that they can charge at home. Condos/Apartments are painfully slow in adding EV equipment and there are countless people that live in homes without off-street parking. For these people even an hour or two of high-amperage charging while they are out doing their normal errands can be enough without having to go to DC fast-charging or Superchargers.
As far as the outlets I agree that Level 1 charging has its place for sure. Airports and other long-term parking are great places to have dedicated 120v outlets installed. A lot of facilities do not understand what EV drivers need and will often just add an outlet in their parking area advertise that they have EV charging facilities.
As for new car buyers my recommendation is to install individual conductors in 1" conduit rather than use romex. The reasoning is that THHN wire (which is the type of wire you will be pulling inside the conduit) goes by the 75 degree wiring column typically on an ampacity chart vs the 60 degree column for romex and allows additional conductors to be added for additional charging under the right circumstances. Unless the run is long I typically install #3 copper for a HPWC and than will install it onto whatever the max ampacity the customers service can handle and set the dip switches accordingly. When paying to have an electrician come out, you are paying mostly for labor, with the the materials typically being the cheaper part of the bill. I try and pull the largest wire size I can so that if the customer decides to upgrade their service to 400amp (or more) they do not have to re-do the HPWC wiring.
Sorry for the long winded post, I promise they wont all be novels.
I have a Roadster and a 50-mile commute one-way so I charge at work with private/public charging stations. The big network here in Northern California is ChargePoint where they have a lot of 30A chargers in shopping malls, parking structures, office parks, etc. The station owners buy a ChargePoint device and connect to their network so with my ChargePoint account, I theoretically have access to over 40,000 ports. I say theoretically because some of the ports are private where you'd have to apply for access (ie an employee of a company, etc.) Prices vary from $1.00/hr to $0.50/kWh (equivalent to $3.00/hr) depending upon the owner but some are free or included in the parking garage fee.
My health club has a Tesla destination charger which gets a lot of use since they only have one port and lots of guests! It's a great perk and makes sure that I get there early to exercise and then head off to work.
I charge at home as well, but with a ~150 mile ideal range from my 7-year-old Roadster, making sure that I have a fully charged battery on my way home ensures that I have enough for A/C and some spirited driving for the hills
My health club has a Tesla destination charger which gets a lot of use since they only have one port and lots of guests! It's a great perk and makes sure that I get there early to exercise and then head off to work.
I charge at home as well, but with a ~150 mile ideal range from my 7-year-old Roadster, making sure that I have a fully charged battery on my way home ensures that I have enough for A/C and some spirited driving for the hills
Thats great that you can charge at work. I think even a 110v outlet at 3-4 miles per hour of range really adds up during an 8 or 9 hour work day and really doesn't cost the workplace too much.
Chargepoint are one of the largest networks in the DC area as well. Unfortunately they are quite pricey. Between the equipment purchase, activation fees and monthly fees it takes a LOT of charging to make up for the thousands the equipment costs.
Don't get me wrong, networked charging is MUCH preferred IMO but it is just a much harder sell to the customer. I typically recommend non-networked chargers unless the EVSE is going in an area that get a lot of people who charge and go to another business. Another great application is restricted area charging or using hourly fees to discourage long term parking. A great example is Free charging for 0-4 hours, $2/hr for 4-6 hours and $4+/hr for 6+ hours to keep people from plugging in and hogging chargers long after they are finished charging.
Question for Roadster owners, I understand these cars have their own charging plug but there are 3rd party adapters in both standard Tesla and J1772 ends. Do most Roadster owners carry one of these with them or is this something that some facilities have to loan to drivers?
Chargepoint are one of the largest networks in the DC area as well. Unfortunately they are quite pricey. Between the equipment purchase, activation fees and monthly fees it takes a LOT of charging to make up for the thousands the equipment costs.
Don't get me wrong, networked charging is MUCH preferred IMO but it is just a much harder sell to the customer. I typically recommend non-networked chargers unless the EVSE is going in an area that get a lot of people who charge and go to another business. Another great application is restricted area charging or using hourly fees to discourage long term parking. A great example is Free charging for 0-4 hours, $2/hr for 4-6 hours and $4+/hr for 6+ hours to keep people from plugging in and hogging chargers long after they are finished charging.
Question for Roadster owners, I understand these cars have their own charging plug but there are 3rd party adapters in both standard Tesla and J1772 ends. Do most Roadster owners carry one of these with them or is this something that some facilities have to loan to drivers?
I have to say that IMHO, the "paid" charging networks are going to have long term problems.
The cost recovery just won't be there, and you encourage customers not to use it.
I would rather see the investment in "nearly free" charging my monitoring the demand charges, and ensuring the EVSE does not trigger an increase in demand charges, and only the per KWh costs.
Most commercial installs the demand charges are the biggest factor.
Paid EVSEs are not horrible, but if I can make it home to charge, 99.99% of the time I will.
-Harry
The cost recovery just won't be there, and you encourage customers not to use it.
I would rather see the investment in "nearly free" charging my monitoring the demand charges, and ensuring the EVSE does not trigger an increase in demand charges, and only the per KWh costs.
Most commercial installs the demand charges are the biggest factor.
Paid EVSEs are not horrible, but if I can make it home to charge, 99.99% of the time I will.
-Harry
Quick question -- in your experience, for a home installation would there (or should there) be any price difference between installing a HPWC with a 60 amp vs. 100 amp circuit due to the kind of wiring needed?
Yes most definitely there would be a price difference between a 60 amp and a 100 amp installation. The largest size of romex wire (which is what is typically used in residential electrical work is 6 gauge wire. This wire is good for 55 amp loads and can be used on a 60 amp breaker only when the actual load is 55 amps or less. If you go with a 100 amp installation you will certainly be running conduit and individual conductors. The conduit installation for either size would be mostly the same price but the cost of the wire in both the materials cost and the labor cost to pull the larger wire thru can be different depending on the installation. I'd make sure you use an electrician that has experience with HPWC installs and they can guide you a little more. I would get the electrician to give you an estimate for both and than you can decide what route makes more sense for you.
I'm not sure I understand what the electrician is speaking about but without knowing all the particulars of the installation I don't want to say what he is proposing is correct or incorrect. Most individual conductors are rated to either 75 or 90 degrees Celsius but there are very few places where the 90 degree rating can be used for any purpose other than derating purposes. Romex wire is limited to the 60 degree rating regardless to what the conductors on the inside of the sheathing is.
The rotary switch on the inside of the HPWC that is most commonly referred to as 60 amp is really 48 amps to the car. EV chargers are considered 'continuous duty' loads and as such must be sized at 125% of the 48 amp charge. The largest practical romex size is 6/2 (or 6/3) which at the 60 degree column is rated for 55 amps and cannot be used for a 60 amp load. While there are many ways to pull this circuit I typically run conduit and install #6 THHN (or #4 at longer distances). This THHN in conduit can be used at the 75 degree rating and is good for 65 amps. I install a 60 amp breaker on the circuit and we're good to go.
For most of my customers if I am already installing conduit I will give them the option to go with a larger size conduit and increase the size of the conductors and install a 100 amp breaker. Usually not terribly more expensive but it is always more expensive. If you have faith in the electrician and the quote for the 100 amp circuit is cheaper than I'd go that route as long as you have the capacity.
The rotary switch on the inside of the HPWC that is most commonly referred to as 60 amp is really 48 amps to the car. EV chargers are considered 'continuous duty' loads and as such must be sized at 125% of the 48 amp charge. The largest practical romex size is 6/2 (or 6/3) which at the 60 degree column is rated for 55 amps and cannot be used for a 60 amp load. While there are many ways to pull this circuit I typically run conduit and install #6 THHN (or #4 at longer distances). This THHN in conduit can be used at the 75 degree rating and is good for 65 amps. I install a 60 amp breaker on the circuit and we're good to go.
For most of my customers if I am already installing conduit I will give them the option to go with a larger size conduit and increase the size of the conductors and install a 100 amp breaker. Usually not terribly more expensive but it is always more expensive. If you have faith in the electrician and the quote for the 100 amp circuit is cheaper than I'd go that route as long as you have the capacity.
As far as public charging goes, I am a recent addition to the electric car world and I appreciate chargers that are available at local grocery stores and shopping centers. Using the apps that allow me to see where destination chargers are like ChargeHub and PlugShare have allowed me to venture out away from the supercharger network confidently, even when outside familiar territory.
Business (shopping centers with common parking) with the foresite to install a few chargers will find those bring customers who might not stop there otherwise.
Business (shopping centers with common parking) with the foresite to install a few chargers will find those bring customers who might not stop there otherwise.