Electricians dodging my calls, can I do this myself? (14-50 install)

[Cosmacelf]

Yeah, here in San Diego, the ground is rock hard. I always marvel at how people in the Midwest where they have actual soil and rain can dig a deep post hole with a manual post hole digger in YouTube video...

 

[ReddyLeaf]

One thing you can try - ask the electrician to quote if you dig the trench yourself.

I've had a subpanel installed in my shed, and the Electrician basically gave me a $800 discount for digging my own trench & then refilling it after.

Digging it required a $60/day trencher from Home Depot, and $2 worth of Ibuprofen for after.

I can't help with the electrical questions, but as for trenching, I've done my fair share. How about replacing three underground irrigation systems (up to an acre), 15" below grade, on solid round river rock covered with a light dusting of blow sand? Forget the shovel, it's a nearly worthless tool for this job, it just means more volume to dig. Also, you can't easily use a machine to trench right up next to the house, when the rocks get too big, or there are large tree roots. Get out the narrow hoe, pick axe (here's an example: http://www.amazon.com/Truper-31614-5-Pound-Mattock-Fiberglass/dp/B000KL2V6A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1436918951&sr=8-1&keywords=pick+axes), axe/loppers/snippers (for roots), and crowbar. Use two people to work from each side, and just dredge/pull the dirt out of the trench and you'll hardly need to even lift. Rocks are only difficult when they get over about 20 lbs, then you need to widen the digging or redirect. It sure beats going to the gym!

 

[2Cybers]

Here is my reaction -

First you are in CA and they have lots of code and regulation issues. Unless you live in an area where people do not hire inspectors when purchasing a house - you really need to think about the fact your house will be sold assuming it does not burn down or get wiped out by a tornado, etc.

Second 100 amp service has not been considered adequate for a long, long time. 200 is the minimum assuming you have things like AC, electric oven, electric drier, etc. == and I don't mean all of those power users - just some. Today many houses have 400 amp service (wires to the house), even if the breaker box is only 200 amps.

Third - looking ahead you might generally need to upgrade your whole house. The big expenses in that process are service to the house (wires and meter) and the circuit breaker box. If you plan on staying there and upgrading, it may well be a waste of money to just get the 14-50 installation - rather plan for the future and get started right.

My guess is electricians might be a whole lot more interested in upgrading service than just adding a 14-50.

 

[NigelM]

It's required to be 18 inches deep (NEC 300.5), unless it's within 5' of the outside edge of a swimming pool or hot tub, in which case it's covered by article 680.

Assuming the job requires/has a permit then there will also be an inspection. Recommend digging the trench to 24" in any case so the inspector is happy.

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Since nobody else has mentioned it -- you probably want to get the gas company out there to mark where their line is located before using anything but a shovel to dig the trench. In most locations, it's a free service.

And the phone/cable company. Speaking from experience redface those lines might be only 6" below the surface.

 

[jjchan]

I thought only here in Appalachian Ohio that we have difficulty in getting home improvement done. I had contacted 4 electricians for the job. A 70-foot home run above the basement drop ceiling to the attached garage and installing a 14-50R. ONE came to look and but never even have the courtesy to send me an estimate. When I found out I did not have to get county permit ( I live outside the city limit), I went online to lookup how to SAFELY do the job. I even overkilled and used MC6-3 for the 70ft indoor run.

[/URL]Untitled by JJ Chan, on Flickr[/img]

 

[brucet999]

… as noted by CHG-ON local building or electrical codes may not permit aerial outbuilding feeds,

Codes in SoCal do to allow aerial wires to outbuildings. In fact, no SoCal electrical supply house even stocks aerial wires. Some may stock PV wire, which is the exact same thing with excellent UV resistance as well. That's what I used to replace 1951-vintage aerial wires whose rubber insulation was crumbling off the wires.

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Here is my reaction -

First you are in CA and they have lots of code and regulation issues. Unless you live in an area where people do not hire inspectors when purchasing a house - you really need to think about the fact your house will be sold assuming it does not burn down or get wiped out by a tornado, etc.

Second 100 amp service has not been considered adequate for a long, long time. 200 is the minimum assuming you have things like AC, electric oven, electric drier, etc. == and I don't mean all of those power users - just some. Today many houses have 400 amp service (wires to the house), even if the breaker box is only 200 amps.

Third - looking ahead you might generally need to upgrade your whole house. The big expenses in that process are service to the house (wires and meter) and the circuit breaker box. If you plan on staying there and upgrading, it may well be a waste of money to just get the 14-50 installation - rather plan for the future and get started right.

OP stated that he plans to move in less than 7 years, so he wants the least expensive solution.
Judging by the size of that panel, it is pretty old and so the likelihood is that SDG&E has only #2 wires to the house, precluding installation of a larger panel anyway.

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Demundus,
Since you plan to sell in a few years, I would suggest that trenching, as suggested by other posters, and I would have the existing 20A wires in that overhead conduit removed and put a sub panel in the garage for both the 14-50 and the 20A. That bent overhead conduit will be a red flag to any prospective buyer's HI and would have to be corrected anyway at greater expense than doing it now.

 

[demundus]

Hey all, update time. Thanks to everyone who had ideas and reassured me I wasn't an idiot.

I was able to get three more electricians out here. All about 2-2.5K in price if I did the trenching for the WHOLE yard. Only one guy was happy to run conduit in the eaves and dive into the ground for the 13' span. He also quoted me a good price to demo the overhead and increase the service to the garage to make up for the missing amperage. I have him coming on the 29th, looks like all's well on that front.

In the meantime, and after the heavy rain here in SD, I gave some serious thought to trenching the whole thing and placing a french drain as well. This would be about 24" of trench following the footer and burying the conduit the whole way, backfilling, french drain, and cover. I was about to pull the trigger, rent a nice trencher, and so I called DIGALERT to come out and mark. Sadly, the side yard is completely cut in half right before the end of the home by a gas line that comes in from the back alley and joins with my neighbor. I am not comfortable trenching it now, and will explore other drain options as time rolls on. Again, RED was the ideal path, Orange is how we're going to have to do it.

Additionally, right about where the orange on the ground starts in the photo, there is god awful soil/rock mixture to which I am having to use a spade and 35lb jackhammer to even make headway for my shovel. Got a few evenings of work ahead of me (i sit all day for a career anyways). Either way, the illegal conduit will be gone, and the garage will have power, which is a plus in my book considering how dismal the location of the detached garage makes it for power in the first place. I'll be sure to stress this to my realtor at sale time

I'll post another update in a bit. Get a loaner tomorrow for some motor work, lets hope its a P85D

 

[Cosmacelf]

Looks good. Yeah, my gardner here in San Diego frequently has to resort to an electric jackhammer when doing larger digging projects. The ground here isn't concrete, but it isn't far off!

 

[Lloyd]

Check code/green book, but I believe you are required to have 18 inches separation from any gas line. Your orange line should keep you in that space, but the red line would likely require a deeper trench than you planned.

 

[Cosmacelf]

I know that utility gas lines and electrical lines can be in a joint trench (at least in California). Don't see why it would be different on private property.

 

[Lloyd]

I believe same trench is ok if it is 18 inches wide and each takes one side.

 

[demundus]

Update!

Three ridiculous half days of jack-chiseling, jack-spading, trench shoveling, and even a little auger-foray for fun. Here's where I stand:

The main 13' trench is looking good. A few more hours of elbow grease and I should have it somewhat uniformly level and ready for conduit

Then I'll need to take my hammer drill and masonry bit and punch a hole under the ****** little planter wall so we can route the conduit under toward the garage.

Here's where I've run into a problem. The planter, about 2 feet in, has footer slag. This thing is solid as hell, my 35lb jack is barely leaving a mark. I am sort of at a loss now. The Tesla gods don't want me to be able to charge at home apparently.

Here's another shot depicting the different levels of slag. We're pretty deep, at the start so thats not a huge deal, but as we approach the garage wall we're way too high for a comfortable trench.

Waiting to hear back from a mason friend on how to proceed. Initial suggestion would be to knock the planter wall out so I can jackhammer the remains of this footer with ease... other option is to try to route around the footer slag, but we'll be nearing 8 bends to get to the garage if I go around anything (on 50amps thats alot of bends).

I'm getting my electrician's opinion, but in the mean time, can anyone tell me why simply going overhead with a mast on the home and a mast on the garage is so expensive? So much so that everyone I've asked about it just says "its too expensive" and wont tell me why.
:cursing:

 

[brucet999]

Update!

Three ridiculous half days of jack-chiseling, jack-spading, trench shoveling, and even a little auger-foray for fun. Here's where I stand:

View attachment 88536

The main 13' trench is looking good. A few more hours of elbow grease and I should have it somewhat uniformly level and ready for conduit

View attachment 88539

Then I'll need to take my hammer drill and masonry bit and punch a hole under the ****** little planter wall so we can route the conduit under toward the garage.

View attachment 88537

Here's where I've run into a problem. The planter, about 2 feet in, has a "step footer" of some sort. This thing is solid as hell, my 35lb jack is barely leaving a mark. I am sort of at a loss now. The Tesla gods don't want me to be able to charge at home apparently.

View attachment 88538

Here's another shot depicting the different levels. We're pretty deep, at the start so thats not a huge deal, but as we approach the garage wall we're way too high for a comfortable trench.

Waiting to hear back from a mason friend on how to proceed. Initial suggestion would be to knock the planter wall out so I can jackhammer the remains of this footer with ease... Now I gotta know, what would the electrician have done if I just let him do all this?? We're quickly approaching "not-worth-it-land" and I might need to hire someone to finish. Oy.

:cursing:

I would suggest that the initial grade was not level, so the planter footing was stepped down as the grade fell away.

Can you divert around that section?

 

[demundus]

@bruce

I could, but it adds bends to the conduit. Never got a max # from the electrician but I'm guessing more is worse

It'll be an exploratory dig, as the slag could go all the way through. If it was clear for a trench, say 8" over, I'd still have to come back and pound out that footer as I approach the garage. I guess that's less work than the entire length :crying:

 

[brucet999]

@bruce

I could, but it adds bends to the conduit. Never got a max # from the electrician but I'm guessing more is worse

It'll be an exploratory dig, as the slag could go all the way through. If it was clear for a trench, say 8" over, I'd still have to come back and pound out that footer as I approach the garage. I guess that's less work than the entire length :crying:

Presumably you are using PVC conduit? That would take two 45º sweeps (big radius makes pulling easier) possibly even cut a little short to maybe 30º and 30º. Two 45º sweeps = one 90º in calculating the number allowed.

Use conduit one size bigger than the minimum for the size and number of wires to be pulled. Plenty of wire lubricant and a good fish tape and you can pull fairly easily, especially if you have a helper feeding wire in, lubing and keeping the wires from winding around one another as they enter the conduit. If there would be too many bends in the total length of conduit, you can use a pull box above ground somewhere along the way to break it up into two pulls. I just pulled 35' of four #8 stranded wires, unassisted, through 3/4" plastic flexible conduit (not as easy as ridged PVC) for a 14-50 exterior RV outlet at my Tahoe cabin.

By "pound out the footer as I approach the garage" is that the garage foundation you are talking about? It is OK to come up out of the ground at the garage wall and then penetrate the wall above grade.

 

[Cosmacelf]

I think you found out why electricians don't like trenching

 

[Bangor Bob]

Oh man. So sorry to hear about the digging situation - sometimes "doing things right" can take some nasty unexpected twists.

When the conduit goes into the ground at the house and hits the 90 bend to horizontal, can you rotate it so that instead of going straight across to the garage it is angled away from the planter? The conduit can meet the garage wall away from the corner a bit, and it's still just 1 bend into the ground, and 1 bend back out.

Failing that, rental houses have BIG electric jackhammers, I had an old concrete slab that I was able to bust up and remove with one, the slab was 10" thick and full of rebar. A weekend's rental wasn't too expensive.

 

[mspohr]

I installed a 14-50 socket outside my house and used this conduit:
Southwire 3/4 in. x 100 ft. Flexible PVC Conduit-58046301 - The Home Depot

It worked great. I laid the conduit out straight on the lawn (50 feet) and pulled the wires (6 gauge) through the conduit. It was pretty easy to get the wires through the conduit when it was straight. After that, I buried it in the trench and didn't have to worry about how many bends or curves it had since the wire was already inside.
This might work for your problem. Just measure out the distance you need, install the wires and then bend the conduit any way you need to get it where you want.

 

[FlasherZ]

I'm getting my electrician's opinion, but in the mean time, can anyone tell me why simply going overhead with a mast on the home and a mast on the garage is so expensive? So much so that everyone I've asked about it just says "its too expensive" and wont tell me why.
:cursing:

Because the Code has all sorts of requirements on masts and weatherheads, and the wiring between them. Between mast supports, guy wires, messenger-supported wires, etc., it's a big pain in the ass - and trenching is usually easier with the right rented tools. This is especially true now that 4-wire feeds are required for outbuildings (post-2008/2011). When you combine that with local code amendments prohibiting aerials, HOA rules requiring undergrounds, etc., it's just a big PITA.

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It worked great. I laid the conduit out straight on the lawn (50 feet) and pulled the wires (6 gauge) through the conduit. It was pretty easy to get the wires through the conduit when it was straight. After that, I buried it in the trench and didn't have to worry about how many bends or curves it had since the wire was already inside.
This might work for your problem. Just measure out the distance you need, install the wires and then bend the conduit any way you need to get it where you want.

You have to ensure that the conduit you buy is listed for direct-burial; some instructions tell you that you're not permitted to direct-bury it in very cold weather, because it becomes brittle and is subject to physical damage. One final point - when concealed (either within walls or in direct-bury situations) you are not permitted to use angle connectors on liquidtite -- you may only use straight connectors.

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Plenty of wire lubricant and a good fish tape and you can pull fairly easily

Fish tape will work for smaller conduit runs, but the way I handle larger runs is to tie pull string to a small ball (cotton, ping-pong, etc.) that easily fits the conduit; suck it through with a shop-vac. When that makes it through, tie to a slightly larger pull rope, and pull it through, then use that to pull your wires through.

 

[JimmyTheSparky]

I can help you. 714-397-4646 Jimmy