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Electricity, Carbon, and Norway

Beckler

Member
Oct 22, 2012
607
550
Canada
Very much so. Teslas, and EVs in general have some pretty substantial incentives that can make them very competitive with conventional ICE cars.

And then the question becomes why do they have such great incentives in Norway? Because they're smart. Don't expect any sort of forward thinking especially with regard to environmental or 'green' initiatives from stupid canada/harper. Three provinces have minor EV incentives when in fact every province should have a 50% or so rebate for EV's, solar installations, etc. The thousands of people who've choked to death on GTA smog would've appreciated it.
 

Jaff

Active Member
Aug 15, 2010
3,135
318
Grimsby, Canada
In fairness Beckler, the Green initiative in Norway is two pronged...not only reduce the consumer's entry cost to EV's through subsidy / rebate, but also heavily penalize the worst ICE vehicle air quality offenders thus discouraging the consumer's purchase of such vehicles.

Whilst I'm disappointed in our current Federal Government's lack of consumer incentive plan supporting EV purchases, to me, your comment implies that either of the other two Federal parties would rectify both of these 'missing" prongs.

Although frequent examples exist of Liberal and NDP election platform programs that are "phantom funded", I see no evidence where either of these two parties have platforms which would even remotely bring our green initiatives in line with the superb programs in Norway...
 

mknox

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2012
10,103
1,870
Toronto, ON
I see no evidence where either of these two parties have platforms which would even remotely bring our green initiatives in line with the superb programs in Norway...

One of the things that often troubles me about Norway is the fact that a very significant portion of the country's wealth comes from their oil industry. I've heard it said that Norway is like a drug dealer that's smart enough not to use his own product. But all that oil, and everything that comes along with it, makes it into the world somewhere. Doesn't just bringing it out of the ground and the seabottom for consumption somewhere count for anything? I just can't help chocking a bit on the hypocrisy. Canada and other oil producing countries often come under a lot of fire, but at least we're not "green-washing" it.
 

Cottonwood

Roadster#433, Model S#S37
Feb 27, 2009
5,088
169
Colorado
One of the things that often troubles me about Norway is the fact that a very significant portion of the country's wealth comes from their oil industry. I've heard it said that Norway is like a drug dealer that's smart enough not to use his own product. But all that oil, and everything that comes along with it, makes it into the world somewhere. Doesn't just bringing it out of the ground and the seabottom for consumption somewhere count for anything? I just can't help chocking a bit on the hypocrisy. Canada and other oil producing countries often come under a lot of fire, but at least we're not "green-washing" it.

OTOH, Norway produces more hydroelectric power than its electric consumptioin. It also exports a modest amount of electricity. EV's are a very good thing for Norway!

See Energy in Norway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for reference.
 

mknox

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2012
10,103
1,870
Toronto, ON
OTOH, Norway produces more hydroelectric power than its electric consumptioin. It also exports a modest amount of electricity. EV's are a very good thing for Norway!

So does Canada. Ontario has pretty much de-carboned it's electricity supply and now are net exporters to placed like New York and Minnesota. Quebec exports a lot of their hydro power too. Nobody ever mentions that when the subject of the Oil Sands or Keystone pipeline comes up though!

EVs could actually be a good thing for Canada (at least parts of it) too. Often our power is exported at low prices simply because of the timing of the export and hourly prices. I've long advocated for a super-off-peak rate for EV charging to utilize that capacity at home, and build an industry here.
 

Jaff

Active Member
Aug 15, 2010
3,135
318
Grimsby, Canada
Good points guys...reasonable arguments for double standards can apply to both countries I guess...

We recognize the problems, but we seem to be all relatively slow to adapt to better solutions, in one way of another...
 

Beckler

Member
Oct 22, 2012
607
550
Canada
Whilst I'm disappointed in our current Federal Government's lack of consumer incentive plan supporting EV purchases, to me, your comment implies that either of the other two Federal parties would rectify both of these 'missing" prongs.

Certainly wasn't implying that or making it about politics, since I don't know enough about that. Just that the current state of affairs is nonsense. We know what's happening and what has to be done to fix it, but just won't do it. They talk about the specifics of how to do pipelines and fracking when neither should even be on the table - especially when the alternatives are superior for all sorts of reasons.

One of the things that often troubles me about Norway is the fact that a very significant portion of the country's wealth comes from their oil industry.

Good points. They need to stop it and soon won't have a choice. Tesla really is going to change the world: cut off the demand for oil and that industry goes to hell.
 

mknox

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2012
10,103
1,870
Toronto, ON
Good points. They need to stop it and soon won't have a choice. Tesla really is going to change the world: cut off the demand for oil and that industry goes to hell.

Every day, on my long drive to/from work I can't get over how many cars there are on our roads. And it's like that in every corner of the globe. It's almost overwhelming. I can't fathom what it would do to the global economy if we just "pull the plug" on oil... even if we should. Would the resulting economic chaos be even worse for the planet? For better or for worse, I think it has to happen based on consumer demand, which is where companies like Tesla come in. Make the argument compelling and people will respond. But we still need more Superchargers in Eastern Canada to make that happen. :smile:
 

Jaff

Active Member
Aug 15, 2010
3,135
318
Grimsby, Canada
It is a complicated process, and certainly will be a difficult transition...needs to be done logically, slowly, methodically...which is why our governments may not be able to pull it off...:wink::biggrin:

All kidding aside though, we need to do this...
 

wayner

Active Member
Oct 29, 2014
3,850
1,397
Toronto
And then the question becomes why do they have such great incentives in Norway? Because they're smart. Don't expect any sort of forward thinking especially with regard to environmental or 'green' initiatives from stupid canada/harper. Three provinces have minor EV incentives when in fact every province should have a 50% or so rebate for EV's, solar installations, etc. The thousands of people who've choked to death on GTA smog would've appreciated it.
But many of the provinces do have major incentives and we have a federal system while Norway does not. So you should look at total governmental incentives, and in some parts of Canada these are not bad., although nowhere near what they are in Norway. But Norway is a huge outlier on this.

One other issue that no one has raised is this - if everyone switched to EVs the federal and provincial governments are going to lose a lot of revenue that comes from the taxes we pay at the gas pump. How is that revenue replaced?
 

PoweredByRain

Member
Jan 5, 2014
712
164
Victoria, BC
So does Canada..

So does Canada what? Export more hydroelectric power than its electric consumption? That's surely not true. Quebec has massive hydroelectric generation, and they export, but I doubt any other province is a net exporter. Hydro only accounts for about 25% of generation in Ontario, and round about close-to-nothing in Alberta and Saskatchewan and the maritimes and territories.
 

mknox

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2012
10,103
1,870
Toronto, ON
So does Canada what? Export more hydroelectric power than its electric consumption? That's surely not true.

Not "hydro"electric power, just electric power. Ontario is around 60% nuclear with the rest wind, hydro and gas, so overall pretty clean. Quebec and BC are mainly hydro. I was responding to @Cottonwood's comment that Norway produces more power than it consumes and exports the rest. Norway has a lot of hydro-electric power, but a lot of Canada's power is also low carbon. It doesn't have to be "hydro" to be clean.
 
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PoweredByRain

Member
Jan 5, 2014
712
164
Victoria, BC
Not "hydro"electric power, just electric power. Ontario is around 60% nuclear with the rest wind, hydro and gas, so overall pretty clean. Quebec and BC are mainly hydro. I was responding to @Cottonwood's comment that Norway produces more power than it consumes and exports the rest. Norway has a lot of hydro-electric power, but a lot of Canada's power is also low carbon. It doesn't have to be "hydro" to be clean.

Cottonwood's claim was specifically about hydroelectric power, and it's still the case that Canada's energy production is not all "renewable". But yes, it is a good thing that so much of it is clean. And maybe some day it will all be renewable.
 

mknox

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2012
10,103
1,870
Toronto, ON
Cottonwood's claim was specifically about hydroelectric power, and it's still the case that Canada's energy production is not all "renewable". But yes, it is a good thing that so much of it is clean. And maybe some day it will all be renewable.

I snapped the following from Wikipedia. This is from 2010 and the notes say that their renewables actually dropped to 13% in 2013:

9-8-2015 4-05-45 PM.jpg


While Norway may be a net exporter, it's not just "hydroelectric" power that they would be exporting, unless they have some magical way of separating only the power generated from hydro for export. Ontario's power is "cleaner" than this.
 

PoweredByRain

Member
Jan 5, 2014
712
164
Victoria, BC
I snapped the following from Wikipedia. This is from 2010 and the notes say that their renewables actually dropped to 13% in 2013:

View attachment 93487

While Norway may be a net exporter, it's not just "hydroelectric" power that they would be exporting, unless they have some magical way of separating only the power generated from hydro for export. Ontario's power is "cleaner" than this.

The official sources (Norwegian Water Resources and Energy Directorate, Statistics Norway) that show up in a Google search say something completely different:

x.jpg


As does the Wikipedia page, if you read it carefully. Re-read the section you posted. "This is an effect of trade in certificates, and does not reflect the physical origin of electricity consumed in Norway, which remains entirely renewable."
 

mknox

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2012
10,103
1,870
Toronto, ON
As does the Wikipedia page, if you read it carefully. Re-read the section you posted. "This is an effect of trade in certificates, and does not reflect the physical origin of electricity consumed in Norway, which remains entirely renewable."

In interconnected markets with various sources of generation, it is always hard to pin this down. The chart you posted talks about 2.5% "thermal" production, which is generally coal or oil, even though Nuclear is also about generating heat. It's also hard to tell what is in the 10,135 GWh of imports. The Wikipedia chart I posted supposedly accounts for this as it talks about the fuel mix for electricity "consumed" . Ontario's exports to New York and Minnesota likely make their stats look "cleaner" by virtue of this Ontario generation.

But the point I was originally trying to make is that from a purely carbon perspective, I don't think the two countries are that far apart.
 

wayner

Active Member
Oct 29, 2014
3,850
1,397
Toronto
Ontario's exports to New York and Minnesota likely make their stats look "cleaner" by virtue of this Ontario generation.
But wouldn't our (Ontario) imports from New York be dirtier as some of that would be from coal - like the Kintigh coal fired station on the shore of Lake Ontario which I can see from my house on clear days.
 

mknox

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2012
10,103
1,870
Toronto, ON
But wouldn't our (Ontario) imports from New York be dirtier as some of that would be from coal - like the Kintigh coal fired station on the shore of Lake Ontario which I can see from my house on clear days.

Ontario is a net exporter right now so with such a small contribution, it's probably background noise. But I suppose yes, it would be a contributor in some small amount to the electricity that we consume here. But it would be based on New York's entire fuel mix at the time of any imports, not just that one plant.
 

glenhurst

Member
Aug 2, 2014
506
241
Minneapolis, MN
I recall reading somewhere that New York's electricity is mostly carbon-free. I think it's mostly nuclear, although I'm not certain, but it is one of the better states for cleaner electricity generation. Then there's my state of Minnesota which is more toward the back of the pack with 47% of the electricity coming from coal. I hate to think what the percentage would be if we weren't importing power from Ontario.
 

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