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Electrify America Fast Chargers - Huh?

Discussion in 'Supercharging & Charging Infrastructure' started by minderbinder, Oct 29, 2018.

  1. Jeff N

    Jeff N Active Member

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    #281 Jeff N, Jul 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
    Electrify America never said all charging spaces would be 350 kW at their sites. They’ve been clear that it would be a mix of 150 kW and 350 kW CCS and its long been clear it would be mostly 150 kW with typically (but not always) two 350 kW dispensers per “highway”-style site.

    The video shows the same same dispenser power levels mentioned in coverage of the opening of the Chicopee site in May 2018 — 2 dispensers with 150 kW CCS and 2 with 350 kW CCS.

    Electrify America switches on the first 350 KW Fast Charging station in Chicopee, Mass.
     
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  2. Jeff N

    Jeff N Active Member

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    The bottom line seems to be that the California DC sites are coming in later than originally envisioned in 2017 but they claim that they will have caught up by the end of this year although they have said they might end up with closer to 150 rather than 160 sites. I’m less clear about how AC 240V charging is going to shake out by the end of this year. It’s possible they might be scaling that back somewhat.
     
  3. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2018: Drain the Sewer

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    Can someone translate this into English ?
     
  4. ReddyLeaf

    ReddyLeaf Member

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    @SageBrush Early Tesla adapters caused overheating of the Nissan Chademo units (poor cooling or plugged filters) and therefore Tesla reduced the amperage in agreement with Nissan. Maybe it’s a carryover????
     
  5. tomc603

    tomc603 Member

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    I feel like I remember the adapters were getting really hot to the touch, too. At least early on. I don't know if Tesla changed the design or not, but if not that could also be a good reason for a charging provider to keep the current lower than normal.
     
  6. Bob M

    Bob M Member

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    My point was that since EA was so heavily subsidized it should have been less expensive that it’s non subsidized competition, including Tesla. Thanks for straightening me out on the actual prices. It was my first attempt to try and figure out prices as a new Bev owner. Sorry for my error.
     
  7. Eno Deb

    Eno Deb Active Member

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    EA is not subsidized. They receive seed capital for infrastructure investments from VW. The plan that was agreed on to meet the terms of the Dieselgate settlement actually says explicitly that EA needs to "focus on a sustainable business model", i.e. the way they operate the network must be economically viable in the long term. In particular, VW is not allowed to cross-subsidize their operational cost to stimulate sales of their vehicles like Tesla does with its supercharger network. If an automaker wants to offer their customers discounted rates in the EA network they can pay EA "access fees", but that option must be open to all carmakers.
     
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  8. tomc603

    tomc603 Member

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    I'm fairly certain I've read about a couple manufacturers that will offer free charging on the EA network for owners of their upcoming EVs. That's a decent perk to some people, so hopefully EA finds and keeps a sustainable model.

    For as much as I think VW is awful and EA has been an extension of VW's view of the environment and their willingness to produce EVs, I do hope they turn things around and deploy a huge network that's well funded and well maintained. The best outcome we could hope for is that in 5 years, all North American EVs are equipped with CCS Combo 1 connectors and we can charge on whichever network is more convenient for us.
     
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  9. mociaf9

    mociaf9 Active Member

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    Are there any threads on TMC or other sites that people know of where future EA locations are sleuthed out or tracked like some of us do for Superchargers? I don't personally have any desire to go actively looking for them, but when I'm searching for supercharger permits/filings/etc and I come across an EA site that hasn't yet been publicly avowed is there some place to share it with those who are interested (e.g. finding the permit for the EA Baker location when looking to see if the construction work at that site was an expansion of the supercharger)? I'm not interested in posting potential locations that aren't even in construction yet to plugshare, so don't bother recommending that one if that's all you've got.
     
  10. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    While Tesla only puts a "coming soon" pin on the city where they plan to install a Supercharger, the Electrify America "coming soon" locations already have an address. For example, their app already shows a site at Ultra Gas and Mart 71808 Baker Blvd. Baker, CA 92309.
     
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  11. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 Porsche 918 Hybrid

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    Interesting comparison of charging options... 30 states allow kWh pricing, but non-Tesla EV drivers mostly miss benefits - Electrek

    There are four major players in public EV charging in the US, with three different business models, but only Tesla has a stated preference for kWh pricing, which they list at $0.28 per kWh in the United States (but this seems to be a maximum, with some states paying less. The other three leading networks are Chargepoint, EVgo, and Electrify America, which all offer direct-current fast-charging (“DCFC”) stations with CCS / Chademo type connectors...

    Electrify America says that they “offer the largest number of public, high-powered, fast-charging stations on the market” with 140 stations (offering speeds up to 350kW) across the country as of April 2019. Their pricing is especially convoluted, however. Instead of a flat per-minute rate like EVgo, Electrify America’s per-minute rate is billed simply based on what model of EV you plug-in, regardless of how much power is actually delivered.

    If your EV is theoretically capable of accepting speeds over 125kW (almost all Teslas), then in California you pay an outlandish $0.99 / min. If your EV’s max kW rate is between 76-125kW, then you pay $0.69 / min, and if your max speed is 75kW or less, then you pay $0.25 / min. There is also a $1 session fee on top of the per-minute rate. In New York, the rates are slightly lower: $0.89 / $0.58 / $0.21 per-minute respectively.
     
  12. dgatwood

    dgatwood Member

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    So enough for ~70 cars? :D
     
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  13. wws

    wws Member

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    Didn't someone in one of the CHAdeMO threads say that the Tesla rate is getting set based on the 50 kW max of the CHAdeMO adapter?
     
  14. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 Porsche 918 Hybrid

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    Nope... fake news. :cool:
     
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  15. Eno Deb

    Eno Deb Active Member

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    Yes. This poster reported paying $0.21/minute using the adapter:

    CHAdeMO Charging the Model 3
     
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  16. ALSET YXES

    ALSET YXES Member

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    It's called capitalism and not socialism for good a reason. Not everything can be free. If the USA government was smart, they are clearly not, they would have detailed out the use of the $2 billion dollar fine and prevented VW from making it a profit center.

    Good on VW for using the USA governments stupidity and corruption to their advantage.

    Bad on the USA government for being so negligent and corrupt.
     
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  17. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    Part of the settlement terms were that EA was supposed to build a viable ongoing business. If they built the network with the $2B and there was insufficient income for ongoing operation and maintenance then the whole thing would be a fail too. If they can't pay for the electricity and keep the chargers maintained, they would fall into disrepair and the whole thing would quickly become useless because people would not have the confidence to take a trip that depended on the chargers being in good working condition.

    Personally, I don't find any significant deficiencies in the terms of the settlement that would indicate the government was negligent or corrupt.

    IMHO, the dieselgate settlement was THE BEST PATH to a viable nationwide intercity fast charging network for non-Tesla vehicles.
     
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  18. Jeff N

    Jeff N Active Member

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    It’s just my guess, but I’m not convinced having the government decide what equipment to buy and where to install it would have resulted in a better charging network.

    Maybe they would have added a few more CHAdeMO plugs but then they also might have installed only 2-3 low-powered chargers at a time in locations driven by electoral political considerations rather than the needs of EV drivers.

    And, a big chunk of the money might have been diverted towards suburban hydrogen stations for passenger fuel cell cars....

    Having the design controlled by business and EV customer considerations seems like a better bet.

    Also, let’s not forget that under the same overall settlement VW had to separately fund a $2.9 billion environmental trust fund that will be spent on projects selected by state and local governments and will be completely outside of the ownership or control of VW.
     
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  19. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    It seems that this is actually the area where the government boondoggles are happening. Some jurisdictions are choosing to spend their money on "clean diesel" or hybrid diesel buses. It's just so ridiculous when they could use the money to start using electric buses and build some depot charging infrastructure.
     
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  20. tomc603

    tomc603 Member

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    See, this is the problem with the US. The education system is obviously failing us, because @ALSET YXES either can't read the settlement terms, or didn't think to read them, neither of which is an acceptable outcome for an adult.

    Nothing's free in socialism or capitalism. In socialism the society all funds things. Very similar to systems you might recognize, like police, fire fighters, military, etc. This is super basic stuff to know. I know it feels edgy to try to dunk on political and societal systems these days, but you really should know the basics before trying it out for yourself.

    Obviously our educational system is failing us.

    You should try reading the details of the settlement, because the outcome actually did specify how VW could spend their money, what it needed to be spent on, and what requirements there were for that spending. A ten second google search would have shown these details, but again, the educational system is clearly not leaving people curious and able to inform themselves.

    Or, just maybe, good on the US government not attempting to overreach and use a fraud settlement to enact legislation which would have been immediately struck down in court. They used the settlement to punish VW, and then they can use the legislative process to pass laws about whatever else they want. But they can't use the outcome of a criminal proceeding (which relies on existing law) to create new law.

    Bad on the USA government for not teaching you that extremely basic US civics lesson.
     
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