Electrify America Fast Chargers - Huh?

[miimura]

Yes, from one of several MSPs depending on where the owner is located. These articles were complete, low effort crap. Literally you can google an European country name and "charging msp" to find details. Plus, all of the VW group brands, ford, kia, hyundai, BMW, and Mercedes are members of Ionity's network and offer their own MSP service.

This "story" really does it for me. I tried to think that maybe these sites were just naive and articles were written quickly to get them published. But now I see that there's a willful rejection of facts, and an intentional lack of even basic curiosity like asking "Huh, I wonder what an MSP is and how someone can join one". Teslarati had easily the worst coverage, and now all the others have blindly followed their insane lead.

The good news is, I can just add each site reporting this story to my news feed block list so I don't have to be subject to such low quality posts.

Please link to at least one MSP. I've just spent 15-20 minutes looking and I can't find one in the UK - mostly because I wanted to look at English language pages. Definitely VW, Audi, and Hyundai have no mention of it on their UK web sites.

 

[DrDabbles]

Please link to at least one MSP. I've just spent 15-20 minutes looking and I can't find one in the UK - mostly because I wanted to look at English language pages. Definitely VW, Audi, and Hyundai have no mention of it on their UK web sites.

You must not have tried very hard. Here's Audi's MSP for the etron.

https://e-tron.charging-service.audi/o/dcs-api/customer/groupIds/47851/tariffs/pdf?locale=nb_NO

Feel free to also use google to translate. Not too sure why this is so hard for people.

Google Translate

And since Audi is a global company, you must have spent even less time searching than I'd have thought. Because here's their MSP landing page for all regions.

Home - Audi Global - DCS

 

[miimura]

You must not have tried very hard. Here's Audi's MSP for the etron.

https://e-tron.charging-service.audi/o/dcs-api/customer/groupIds/47851/tariffs/pdf?locale=nb_NO

Feel free to also use google to translate. Not too sure why this is so hard for people.

Google Translate

And since Audi is a global company, you must have spent even less time searching than I'd have thought. Because here's their MSP landing page for all regions.

Home - Audi Global - DCS

My google-fu is obviously sub-par. 0.30GBP/kWh is obviously much better than 0.69GBP/kWh drop-in rate. If you charge at least 44kWh per month you're saving money with the 16.95GBP/mo Transit plan. 12 month commitment required.

Still doesn't answer my question about any available MSPs for Tesla Model 3 owners that want to use Ionity. As far as I can tell, the Audi plan is only available to Audi owners because it requires a myAudi login.

 

[DrDabbles]

My google-fu is obviously sub-par. 0.30GBP/kWh is obviously much better than 0.69GBP/kWh drop-in rate. If you charge at least 44kWh per month you're saving money with the 16.95GBP/mo Transit plan. 12 month commitment required.

Still doesn't answer my question about any available MSPs for Tesla Model 3 owners that want to use Ionity. As far as I can tell, the Audi plan is only available to Audi owners because it requires a myAudi login.

How bout PlugSurfing Plugsurfing, or Shell Recharge Shell Recharge. Convenient EV charging ? I presume you understand the point I'm making here. You can search for charging memberships, or read one of many EV-centric sites that cover network memberships. For example Der emobly Ladekarten-Kompass Januar 2020 • emobly

Edit:

I just want to say that the point of what I'm saying here isn't to jump on any individuals here. It's to point out that an American with access to the Internet can find all of this info about charging networks around the world in minutes with a modicum of curiosity. What is shameful is that these "news" outlets didn't bother to do the bare minimum. They read outraged tweets, and were off to write articles without a moment of thought. That's a pretty major problem, and it basically means that these pro-EV sites are doing the work for all the anti-EV people out there.

 

[FlatSix911]

Yes, from one of several MSPs depending on where the owner is located. These articles were complete, low effort crap. Literally you can google an European country name and "charging msp" to find details. Plus, all of the VW group brands, ford, kia, hyundai, BMW, and Mercedes are members of Ionity's network and offer their own MSP service.

This "story" really does it for me. I tried to think that maybe these sites were just naive and articles were written quickly to get them published. But now I see that there's a willful rejection of facts, and an intentional lack of even basic curiosity like asking "Huh, I wonder what an MSP is and how someone can join one". Teslarati had easily the worst coverage, and now all the others have blindly followed their insane lead. The good news is, I can just add each site reporting this story to my news feed block list so I don't have to be subject to such low quality posts.

Please post the MSP plan pricing... here is the published direct consumer pricing. YMMV

 

[SageBrush]

You must not have tried very hard. Here's Audi's MSP for the etron.

I've read that the Germans and Audi have MSP tariff schedules.

Have you seen any for Ford or the Korean twins ?

 

[rhumbliner]

The notion of “charging as a service” is, frankly, repulsive. Electricity is a commodity, and it would be nice to be able to procure it without entering an ongoing relationship with yet another subscription service.

This is quoted from Charles Benoit’s article in Electrek and I have to agree. Even though subscription services seem to be the way of things (streaming channels, cell phones, etc) I still hate the idea of having to pay a monthly fee to a service and then having to pay again to use it. How many MSP’s would I have to subscribe to if I lived on the European continent and travelled around a lot? Or if I charged mainly at home but needed an MSP’s services just a few times a month at various locations? When I drove an ICE I didn’t have to subscribe to Mobil, Exxon, and Texaco, I just drove up and paid per use. I like that model best and that’s the model Electrek is reporting on.

 

[Eno Deb]

Still doesn't answer my question about any available MSPs for Tesla Model 3 owners that want to use Ionity. As far as I can tell, the Audi plan is only available to Audi owners because it requires a myAudi login.

There are numerous providers in Europe with extensive roaming agreements (typically not just with Ionity, but also other networks such as Fastned and local networks). One example from Germany is Getcharge, which is operated by Deutsche Telekom. DC charging on Ionity and other networks for 0.39 Euro/kWh. No subscription fee. Another example is ADAC eCharge which is available to all members of ADAC (the German equivalent to the AAA).

 

[DrDabbles]

This is quoted from Charles Benoit’s article in Electrek and I have to agree. Even though subscription services seem to be the way of things (streaming channels, cell phones, etc) I still hate the idea of having to pay a monthly fee to a service and then having to pay again to use it. How many MSP’s would I have to subscribe to if I lived on the European continent and travelled around a lot? Or if I charged mainly at home but needed an MSP’s services just a few times a month at various locations? When I drove an ICE I didn’t have to subscribe to Mobil, Exxon, and Texaco, I just drove up and paid per use. I like that model best and that’s the model Electrek is reporting on.

This is literally the only worthwhile debate to be had. In my opinion, it's like an ISP charging you for the maximum speed of your connection and then charging you an additional fee when you download X amount of data. It's a cash grab. So either increase your per-unit fees until it pays for your network, or charge a monthly subscription fee that pays for the network.

Please post the MSP plan pricing... here is the published direct consumer pricing.

Didn't bother reading the conversation before replying, huh? That's too bad, because I gave a direct link to Norwegian and the European MSP pricing direct from Audi.

 

[israndy]

Didn't bother reading the conversation before replying, huh? That's too bad, because I gave a direct link to Norwegian and the European MSP pricing direct from Audi.

Let me see if I can help you Dr., the reason people are arguing with your posts is that you don't support them with data. You call people names for not knowing what you say you know and when asked you post links to foreign language sites like this one:

I know you think it was easy for you to translate and why are people so lazy. But a single translation of what you are trying to reference and a copy of that in your message would have ended the discussion. Extolling people to follow a link to an entire site and expect us to understand what part of that site you are asking us to look at, especially when it requires downloading documents and translating them first, by then we have lost the thread of what you were talking about.

TMC is great in that you can post links here, but you can also post images and translations like FlatSix911 did above. If you did that for your messages others would see it directly. Whereas, if just two people read your post above you have tripled the amount of translating work that must be done to understand what you are saying.

So come down off your high horse and help us know what you are talking about.

 

[DrDabbles]

Let me see if I can help you Dr., the reason people are arguing with your posts is that you don't support them with data.

Well, except that I've now linked to Audi's price sheet, which is data, and offered two other MSPs that can be joined. Not sure how much more data you'd like, but I've illustrated the fact that someone not running a news blog has done more research than several people that are.

You call people names

Quote for me where I've called someone here a name, please. I'm careful not to do that.

for not knowing what you say you know and when asked you post links to foreign language sites like this one:

Click on the rest of the links in that post. Because I linked to Audi's global MSP listing, which includes memberships for UK (english) as well as all other european nations so people could see how their local program would work. I also linked an automated translation of the Norwegian one I linked. Seriously. If you're going to disagree with a point I've made, that's okay. But you haven't bothered to click the links I offered, and then said I'm not providing data. But I have.

I know you think it was easy for you to translate

Well, I also linked an english version, so no translation necessary.

and why are people so lazy.

Specifically, authors of news blogs. I expect them to be more inquisitive and to provide their readers with the whole story. Interesting enough, EV Daily did a decent treatment of this story on their latest podcast. He actually went out and looked at pricing for members versus non-members, and wouldn't you know he found out that they overhyped reports saying "now diesel is cheaper" is only true if you pay a non-membership price.

But a single translation of what you are trying to reference and a copy of that in your message would have ended the discussion.

I offered the direct sources so people could verify my claims. If you can't be bothered to click a link to a price sheet, so you can verify I'm not making up BS, that's fine. Then just blindly trust what I'm saying. But if you want to make sure I'm not some shill, click on any of the links I've offered and verify my statements with the pricing offered directly by the companies providing it.

Trusting someone that doesn't offer a source isn't wise when the claim is counter to what you've seen otherwise.

Extolling people to follow a link to an entire site

I linked directly to pricing information. Not to a whole site.

especially when it requires downloading documents and translating them first, by then we have lost the thread of what you were talking about.

Which is why I linked to a translated version, and to an English version, and to Audi's european MSP site, and to two other MSPs. All as asked.

So come down off your high horse and help us know what you are talking about.

Nobody's on a high horse. My claim was crystal clear in the beginning. The Electrec (and Teslarati) stories were total bullshit. Their claim is that Ionity is raising prices. Yeah. If you don't belong to an MSP. I pointed out that there were several brands that offer an MSP when you purchase their EV, as well as several independent MSPs. Someone asked me to provide evidence of my claim, which I did. Then they asked me to provide a link to MSPs that weren't manufacturers, which I did.

If you can't be bothered to read, that's fine. But don't come around here saying I'm acting in a way that I'm not. And don't say I'm not providing information when I have. I linked directly to the source info, so anybody here can verify my claim. Which is the bare minimum to making a claim- offering support for your claim.

 

[DrDabbles]

Since only cropped images count as evidence here, this is the UK Audi MSP pricing information for the "Transit" plan, which includes access to the Ionity network throughout Europe.

And here's Shell's Recharge cost FAQ

Let me know if there's any other pictures of text I can capture for people, I guess.

 

[Eno Deb]

Nobody's on a high horse. My claim was crystal clear in the beginning. The Electrec (and Teslarati) stories were total bullshit.

Have to agree here. Their main interest appears to be to post sensationalist click bait headlines in big fonts. These sites are far away from journalism (sadly that seems to be a general trend everywhere these days).

 

[Eno Deb]

Not sure if this was posted already, but I found this interview with Tom Moloughney interesting:

 

[FlatSix911]

Since only cropped images count as evidence here, this is the UK Audi MSP pricing information for the "Transit" plan, which includes access to the Ionity network throughout Europe.

View attachment 502009
And here's Shell's Recharge cost FAQ

View attachment 502010
Let me know if there's any other pictures of text I can capture for people, I guess.

Do you consider these subscription plans a good value compared to Tesla?

 

[DrDabbles]

Do you consider these subscription plans a good value compared to Tesla?

I consider them an option for owners of EVs that need DC fast charging, and want the convenience of ultrafast DC fast charging. For the overwhelming majority of EV owners, the "transit" plan is overkill. Since Tesla chargers aren't present everywhere they're needed, and since other EV brands can't (yet?) access Tesla's charging network, it's necessary. Money wise, if you have Tesla chargers nearby, why would you be using Ionity in the first place except the faster charging times?

If I had the option in the US to use an expensive DC charger versus an AC charger at 10% the speed, I'd pay the extra cost. But I would use it even less than I already user Superchargers, which is probably 3 or 4 trips a year.

 

[Fredneck]

When on trips, the overnight charging at a hotel or motel is a significant part of the day's charging.

Yep, if you are staying at a hotel, great, but as I said, no substitute for fast charging. When you need to drive further in a day than one tank of electrons, DC fast charging is mandatory or it's a very slow trip indeed.

 

[Fredneck]

Seems quite a bit more complicated than you make it out to be. Besides an extra compute board with cellular connection (and subscription), you need the proper instrumentation to accurately measure the energy intake, some way to display the pricing on the car's dashboard (since the Tesla superchargers have no display), and some kind of verification program so Tesla can trust the accuracy of the transmitted charging records. This can not be done with a simple external Tesla-to-CCS adapter.

I have no idea why you think any of the above is complicated. A cell connection is literally trivial. Every cell phone has one, including the $25 flip phone I bought a few years ago. The energy measurements are already in place in the cars. They display that info on the dash in the cars I've seen.

What part of this can't be done with an adapter??? I guess the "display" needs to be in the car, but that's not hard to do by the adapter talking to the car via bluetooth.

 

[Eno Deb]

I have no idea why you think any of the above is complicated. A cell connection is literally trivial. Every cell phone has one, including the $25 flip phone I bought a few years ago. The energy measurements are already in place in the cars. They display that info on the dash in the cars I've seen.

What part of this can't be done with an adapter??? I guess the "display" needs to be in the car, but that's not hard to do by the adapter talking to the car via bluetooth.

So now we have a charging adapter that has an onboard computer, cellular connection, Bluetooth, and possibly a power-meter. It will require a cellular subscription to function, and negotiate with the car via Bluetooth (which profile, BTW?). This is all supposed to work with any arbitrary EV. And you are saying this is not complicated?

 

[cwerdna]

Thru a Bolt group (and a busted URL that was posted), apparently EA is looking for feedback/submissions at Submit a comment or recommendation | Electrify America.

For those who want them to stop screwing CHAdeMO users (only 50 kW and 1 plug vs. many CCS), you can speak up there.