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Electrify America Fast Chargers - Huh?

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Gotta love it that VW was allowed to spend $2 billion of their own money as punishment that lets them benefit their own vehicles.
It also benefits everbody else's vehicles. If it makes you feel better, consider that it saved American car companies like GM, Ford, Lucid and Rivian billions that they'd otherwise have to spend on building charging infrastructure to make their EVs viable in the US market.

Even Tesla drivers can benefit if they have a Chademo adapter, and if Tesla could bring itself to release a US CCS adapter, it would be even more useful for us.
 
Even Tesla drivers can benefit if they have a Chademo adapter
At the moment, that benefit is pretty lame since they stacked the deck and only install a single CHAdeMO plug at each site vs. the many CCS plugs. It's not that rare that the station w/CHAdeMO plug is down.

I dropped by one of the sites near home 9 days ago and two of the DC FCs were showing a network error on the credit card/NFC readers. I'm pretty sure one of them was the one w/the CHAdeMO plug.

As for the other car companies, I guess there is sort of a benefit. Every time I've been to or been by an EA site with powered up DC FCs, I've never ever seen anyone use them. Either I was the only user or there was nobody. I guess their physical presence can give non-Tesla EVs some peace of mind by either seeing the chargers and/or seeing them on maps (e.g. Plugshare, EA's app, Waze, etc.)

Since their pricing has become rather high for me w/my Bolt vs. their prior time-based billing, I will not be using them in the future unless there's an emergency or I'm on a road trip. Previously, it was cheaper for me to charge on their DC FCs while on Pass+ than at home if I started with a warm enough battery and stopped charging at the first taper.
 
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At the moment, that benefit is pretty lame since they stacked the deck and only install a single CHAdeMO plug at each site vs. the many CCS plugs.
That has nothing to do with "stacking the deck", but with simple market realities. Chademo is a dying standard in the US.
As for the other car companies, I guess there is sort of a benefit. Every time I've been to or been by an EA site with powered up DC FCs, I've never ever seen anyone use them.
Tesla superchargers were also underutilized in the early years, particularly outside of California. What Tesla understood then is that there is a chicken and egg problem. Without a reasonable fast charging network, you can't sell EVs. So I'm not sure what your point is. EA is enabling all these companies to bring their EVs to the market without first having to spend billions on charging infrastructure.
Since their pricing has become rather high for me w/my Bolt vs. their prior time-based billing, I will not be using them in the future unless there's an emergency or I'm on a road trip.
Their per-kWh prices are similar to Tesla's.
 
That has nothing to do with "stacking the deck", but with simple market realities. Chademo is a dying standard in the US.
EA assisted with the killing of CHAdeMO in the US by intentionally only doing the bare minimum (1 50 kW CHAdeMO handle + multiple higher powered CCS at each site). You don't think automakers in EV planning stages saw that?

Do you think we'd be in this same situation in the US if VW of America-owned EA equally treated CHAdeMO equally as CCS? What if they did the opposite and installed 5 to 7 high-powered CHAdeMO and 1 50 kW CCS at each site? What other major non-Tesla DC FC provider in the US has been treating DC FC standards so unequally across most/all their deployments?

VW, BMW and Mercedes (for instance) put CHAdeMO inlets on their Japanese market EVs (e-Golf, i3 and EQC).
Their per-kWh prices are similar to Tesla's.
Yeah, but prior to the price change, Pass+ was 18 cents/minute in California. Given the conditions I listed and when I'd terminate charging, it would come out to about 18 cents per kWh for me. Now, Pass+ is 31 cents/kWh, giving me no reason to use their DC FCs. That is about the same as my marginal cost to charge at home.

Instead, I will be using a Home Page - DRIVEtheARC (free or discounted) or a nearby 19 cent/kWh dual-standard charger.
 
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Your bolt has a taper on a 50kW charger?
Yes. Maybe a better think to look at is the movie at Watch a Bolt EV at a ChargePoint Express 250 charge at up to 55 kW or the power lines of Best charging curve I've seen yet from a 100kW DCFC which are more than 50 kW.

On an above 50 kW DC FC, after around 50 or 55%, the charging rate will fall to about 37 kW and then continues on down. IIRC, on 125 amp chargers (what I normally use), there's also a similar taper, at around the same point, if memory serves.

It gets really slow a bit past 90% where at that point, it'll be around 9 to 11 kW or so.
 
That has nothing to do with "stacking the deck", but with simple market realities. Chademo is a dying standard in the US.

Their per-kWh prices are similar to Tesla's.

Sure it’s stacking the deck when they only have one CHAdeMO connector on multi-stall sites, even in areas with a high concentration of CHAdeMO vehicles.

The Pacific Northwest is a great example of a location that could use more CHAdeMO connectors. There are a lot of LEAFs, Souls and even i-MiEVs on the roads up here.

In addition to not allowing two CHAdeMO cars to charge at once, having a lone CHAdeMO connector removes all redundancy in the event of a connector or charger failure, even if the other units are functioning fine. In many areas, the next closest charger could be well beyond your remaining range.

If, as you say, the reason for CCS dominance is due to future market trends, it would make sense to me that CHAdeMO connectors be installed now to service the existing fleet and be swapped for CCS later when data from actual charging sessions supports it.
 
Sure it’s stacking the deck when they only have one CHAdeMO connector on multi-stall sites, even in areas with a high concentration of CHAdeMO vehicles.

The Pacific Northwest is a great example of a location that could use more CHAdeMO connectors. There are a lot of LEAFs, Souls and even i-MiEVs on the roads up here.

In addition to not allowing two CHAdeMO cars to charge at once, having a lone CHAdeMO connector removes all redundancy in the event of a connector or charger failure, even if the other units are functioning fine. In many areas, the next closest charger could be well beyond your remaining range.
Yep. Someone who I know lives in Western WA w/a Leaf (he's had several of them, starting with an '11 and now has a Leaf Plus) has complained about queues developing at EA chargers for the lone CHAdeMO plug. I believe he's also posted about the lone station w/CHAdeMO plug being down.
 
Now, Pass+ is 31 cents/kWh, giving me no reason to use their DC FCs. That is about the same as my marginal cost to charge at home.

Instead, I will be using a Home Page - DRIVEtheARC (free or discounted) or a nearby 19 cent/kWh dual-standard charger.

You can't switch from tiered rates to time-of-use? Most TOU plans offer much lower middle of night rates, making home charging inexpensive. SCE charges $0.125/kWh from 10pm to 8am, PG&E may have similar rates.
 
That has nothing to do with "stacking the deck", but with simple market realities.
Hogwash. CHAdeMO capable chargers make up less than 1/4 of all chargers at EA stations but CHAdeMO charging sessions account for significantly more than 1/4 of all EA charging sessions. And the numbers of those CHAdeMO charging sessions is actually depressed from what it would be due to the limit of only having 1 at any station (more down time, deferred charging sessions due to single station occupied, etc). All of which means they are underrepresented. We all know that the future of EVs in the US will be CCS (or CCS+Tesla depending on how recalcitrant Elon remains). But that fact and all your EA apologist dreck aside doesn't change the reality that EA absolutely set out to intentionally disadvantage CHAdeMO cars beyond what was reasonable based on the "simple market realities". In another 5 years or so, the current fractional make up of EA stations between CCS and CHAdeMO might make sense but it certainly hasn't since the start of the EA build.

The economics of EV charging stations is highly tied to station utilization rates. This is a simple result of the way commercial electricity rates are structured with massive demand charges regardless of the actual volumetric energy delivered. EA's decision to so drastically bias their station design for operations years in the future is bad business, not evidence of EA correctly reading the market's tea leaves.
 
You can't switch from tiered rates to time-of-use? Most TOU plans offer much lower middle of night rates, making home charging inexpensive. SCE charges $0.125/kWh from 10pm to 8am, PG&E may have similar rates.
Prior to COVID-19, I didn't work from home and I was on a TOU plan, E-6 (see pages 2 and 4 of https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-6.pdf). But due to COVID-19, I was required to WFH for months and pretty much at this point, there is no point in going to the office: almost none of my team is there so collaboration is no better and I don't want to be that guy who might catch or spread COVID from going there for no reason. So, I switched intentionally to E-1 since E-6 made no sense any longer.

E-6 is closed to new customers so I can't go back anyway. As for the bolded part, sure, see https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_EV2 (Sch).pdf pages 2 and 3. It's 16.67 cents/kWh off-peak but they kill you the rest of the day (33.5 to 47.9 cents/kWh).

Until I have a safe and effective COVID-19 vaccine in me, I need to WFH. I may need to run a space heater to keep myself warm while WFH (it can get into the low 50's inside at home in the winter) or run my "portable" AC unit during the summer on the hottest of days (e.g. when it gets above 100 F). In summer, sometimes in my house upstairs gets to above 95 F (I have no central AC). It gets pretty unpleasant at home when you're in the living room w/a high ceiling (ceiling goes to the top of 2 story house) and it hits 86 F and you're working w/a fan and your shirt off.

I don't like the idea of paying 47.9 cents/kWh when I work in "summer" and even worse when I have to run my portable AC. Ditto for 35.2 cents/kWh when working in "winter" when I may have to run a space heater (or have the the several hundred watt furnace fan motor running) besides the other inconveniences EV2-A causes. Looks like it is expensive every day except from 12:01 am until 2:59 pm.

Pre-COVID, I charged on free L2 at work. Had free L1 or L2 charging at work for over 7 years.

19 cents/kWh DC FC or (via DrivetheARC) 75% discount off 30 cents/minute EVgo DC FC or free EVgo is what I'm sticking with for now, instead of PG&E rates. There are a few other PG&E TOU plans for homes but none make any sense for my current situation.
 
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EA assisted with the killing of CHAdeMO in the US by intentionally only doing the bare minimum (1 50 kW CHAdeMO handle + multiple higher powered CCS at each site). You don't think automakers in EV planning stages saw that?
Chademo's fate in the US (and Europe) was sealed long before EA existed, when all of the carmakers in the US (and Europe) decided not to adopt it outside of the Japanese market.
What if they did the opposite and installed 5 to 7 high-powered CHAdeMO and 1 50 kW CCS at each site? What other major non-Tesla DC FC provider in the US has been treating DC FC standards so unequally across most/all their deployments?
What other major non-Tesla DC FC provider has built a network for long distance trips? There is only a single Chademo EV in the US that can reasonably be used for long distance travel, and no new ones have been announced either.
VW, BMW and Mercedes (for instance) put CHAdeMO inlets on their Japanese market EVs (e-Golf, i3 and EQC).
And that is relevant for the US market how?
 
Hogwash. CHAdeMO capable chargers make up less than 1/4 of all chargers at EA stations but CHAdeMO charging sessions account for significantly more than 1/4 of all EA charging sessions. And the numbers of those CHAdeMO charging sessions is actually depressed from what it would be due to the limit of only having 1 at any station (more down time, deferred charging sessions due to single station occupied, etc). All of which means they are underrepresented. We all know that the future of EVs in the US will be CCS (or CCS+Tesla depending on how recalcitrant Elon remains). But that fact and all your EA apologist dreck aside doesn't change the reality that EA absolutely set out to intentionally disadvantage CHAdeMO cars beyond what was reasonable based on the "simple market realities". In another 5 years or so, the current fractional make up of EA stations between CCS and CHAdeMO might make sense but it certainly hasn't since the start of the EA build.

The economics of EV charging stations is highly tied to station utilization rates. This is a simple result of the way commercial electricity rates are structured with massive demand charges regardless of the actual volumetric energy delivered. EA's decision to so drastically bias their station design for operations years in the future is bad business, not evidence of EA correctly reading the market's tea leaves.
I see this differently. There are no new (native) CHAdeMO cars being built for the the US market. Sure, Tesla makes an adapter, but most people don't buy one. Nissan was the last manufacturer building CHAdeMO cars, but this year they announced going to CCS.

So, there will basically be no additional CHAdeMO cars added to the US market. Charging vendors like EA, EVgo, and ChargePoint will continue to add CHAdeMO stations at a fairly quick rate. Rapidly reducing the utilization of those CHAdeMO ports.

Based on current demand for CHAdeMO, I would not be surprised to see some charging vendors start completely dropping CHAdeMO ports from new builds within the next 1-2 years. There is simply no need to build more stations if there are no new cars to use them. The one exception might be EA, as their settlement terms might require they continue including CHAdeMO ports.
 
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I see this differently. There are no new (native) CHAdeMO cars being built for the the US market. Sure, Tesla makes an adapter, but most people don't buy one. Nissan was the last manufacturer building CHAdeMO cars, but this year they announced going to CCS.

So, there will basically be no additional CHAdeMO cars added to the US market.
Charging vendors like EA, EVgo, and ChargePoint will continue to add CHAdeMO stations at a fairly quick rate. Rapidly reducing the utilization of those CHAdeMO ports.

Based on current demand for CHAdeMO, I would not be surprised to see some charging vendors start completely dropping CHAdeMO ports from new builds within the next 1-2 years. There is simply no need to build more stations if there are no new cars to use them. The one exception might be EA, as their settlement terms might require they continue including CHAdeMO ports.
No. Mitsubishi Motors also makes vehicles for the US market w/CHAdeMO inlets (e.g. Outlander PHEV). There are also CHAdeMO vehicles outside the US, including those from Asian and European automakers.

As for Nissan, they didn't announce they are going CCS specifically, at least not that I've seen (and I follow Leaf since I've had one for over 7 years). They announced Ariya for US (possibly North America) and Europe will go CCS. I have not seen anything further than that. I will admit it's likely that either a next gen or revision of Leaf will go CCS for the US or Leaf will go away in the US market.

As for no new cars to use them, there are still all Teslas beyond original Roadster who could use CHAdeMO adapters.
 
As for no new cars to use them, there are still all Teslas beyond original Roadster who could use CHAdeMO adapters.
I acknowledge that, but I really don't think Tesla has sold that many adapters, and of the sold adapters, I doubt they're much used. The adapter is super clunky (lots of hilarious YouTube videos of folks wrestling the adapter), and it's much slower (and often more expensive) than SuperCharging. Unless someone is venturing into one the areas not serviced by the SC network (and that area is getting smaller every day), there's just no reason to use/own a CHAdeMO adapter.
 
EA assisted with the killing of CHAdeMO in the US by intentionally only doing the bare minimum (1 50 kW CHAdeMO handle + multiple higher powered CCS at each site). You don't think automakers in EV planning stages saw that?

Do you think we'd be in this same situation in the US if VW of America-owned EA equally treated CHAdeMO equally as CCS? What if they did the opposite and installed 5 to 7 high-powered CHAdeMO and 1 50 kW CCS at each site? What other major non-Tesla DC FC provider in the US has been treating DC FC standards so unequally across most/all their deployments?

VW, BMW and Mercedes (for instance) put CHAdeMO inlets on their Japanese market EVs (e-Golf, i3 and EQC).

Yeah, but prior to the price change, Pass+ was 18 cents/minute in California. Given the conditions I listed and when I'd terminate charging, it would come out to about 18 cents per kWh for me. Now, Pass+ is 31 cents/kWh, giving me no reason to use their DC FCs. That is about the same as my marginal cost to charge at home.

Instead, I will be using a Home Page - DRIVEtheARC (free or discounted) or a nearby 19 cent/kWh dual-standard charger.
That is 0.18 cents per minute for the slowest DCFC charge rate.since the most vehicles with CHAdeMo ports are only 50kW max.
 
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I acknowledge that, but I really don't think Tesla has sold that many adapters, and of the sold adapters, I doubt they're much used. The adapter is super clunky (lots of hilarious YouTube videos of folks wrestling the adapter), and it's much slower (and often more expensive) than SuperCharging. Unless someone is venturing into one the areas not serviced by the SC network (and that area is getting smaller every day), there's just no reason to use/own a CHAdeMO adapter.
You should pay a visit to North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota and/or anywhere along the Trans Canada Highway. Plenty of Chademo use there and will be for quite a while.
 
I acknowledge that, but I really don't think Tesla has sold that many adapters, and of the sold adapters, I doubt they're much used. The adapter is super clunky (lots of hilarious YouTube videos of folks wrestling the adapter), and it's much slower (and often more expensive) than SuperCharging. Unless someone is venturing into one the areas not serviced by the SC network (and that area is getting smaller every day), there's just no reason to use/own a CHAdeMO adapter.

I just charged today at one of the original CHAdeMO units in Bellingham, WA for half the price of the local Superchargers (Blaine and Burlington). The detour to either one of those would have been equivalent to the additional time it took to charge at 45 kW at the CHAdeMO instead of full speed at the Superchargers. In the end, I saved money, broke even on time and drove 30 fewer miles.