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Elon about Model 3: "free long distance" Supercharging "not free local"

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by ecarfan, Nov 17, 2016.

  1. kaj102wiu

    kaj102wiu Member

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    This... I agree.
    I think everyone else is reading too much into his words. Free destination chargers makes sense as Tesla wouldn't be paying for that anyway
     
  2. cantdecide

    cantdecide Member

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    The formula doesn't have to be free versus not-free for something as simple as a geofence... it can be a complex formula

    Once superchargers have pricing the price is not "on the pump" but instead on your car/phone... it doesn't have to be the same for everyone:
    • Pricing can vary by time of day
    • Pricing can vary by how full the supercharger is
    • Pricing can vary by how far you are from your home
    • Pricing can vary by how far you have driven today
    • Pricing can be determined by the average (over the last week) of the distance from this supercharger to your car!
    Imagine combining these appropriately...

    Suppose you do a trip from the bay area to tahoe. Your first charge is over 100 miles away from last7day locations, so it is free.
    You get to Tahoe, charge for free. If you instead do your first charge at 50 miles, maybe a 0.5x multiplier on the usual price.
    You can stay at tahoe for a weekend, charge for free, head home and your charging is free even if you are close to home (distance driven that day, and distance from where you were last night).
    However, if instead you were staying in Tahoe for a week then after 4 days maybe Tesla starts charging you but with a 0.5x multiplier... still cheap but it would be better if you had a destination charger.

    However if you are supercharging near home and are also near where you spent last night... it will cost you full price. Maybe if you have driven 200 miles that day around town then you can get half price.
    If you are near home and the supercharger is full, charge an extra 10c/minute surge pricing (as extra superchargers cost money)
    etcetera...

    With such complexity, your model 3 for genuine long distance travel is usually free, occasionally costs half the normal price.
    However if you charge home all the time when the superchargers are full, be prepared to pay extra.
     
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  3. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Excellent point. Think of how airline tickets are sold now. The pricing formula is complex on the back end, but what the user sees is, at the moment that they are ready to purchase a ticket, there is one price. If they wait an hour to buy, the price could be different for the same route.

    Tesla can implement their new Supercharger scheme in a variety of ways. We know the basic idea, but the way it will actually work could be much more complex on the back end but still simple for their customers.
     
  4. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Active Member

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    I think the upshot of that is that when returning home I would charge at the one 201 miles from home, I would be at high SoC already and need plenty of SoC in order to complete the final part of my journey, so I will charge towards 100%, I will take longer to charge, and I will clog up the stall (compared to driving further and then charging, nearer to home, when my SoC is much lower)

    (And in my case the chargers further away are at much more commonly used location, where blocking is more likely, than the one nearer to home which is much less likely to be busy).

    I just don't see that complex proposals work well - they encourage resentment, disputes, ... etc.

    I really like the simplicity of something like "400kWh p.a. included". I would not include any annual rollovers

    At the risk of shooting myself in the foot on "complexity" if rollovers are included perhaps they can be on a reducing basis - all rollover units are used first, but depreciate - e.g. by 10% per month.
     
  5. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    Simple radius would be rather blunt. You really want some smarts. Tesla knows where the car goes, so they should be able to see whether a charge is because of a trip or not. For example, I have a Supercharger pretty close to me, but I can foresee occasionally hitting that Supercharger for a top up to be sure of getting home. The annual buffer then takes care of any issues related to broken EVSEs or outages.
     
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  6. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    Let's try to dispel this myth. It depends heavily on oil prices and fuel economy of the car itself.

    Example using P100D:

    100 kWh (plus 10% losses) * national average $0.12/kWh = $13.20 for 315 mi
    [even if we consider a 100% efficient inverter, the price would be $12]

    Some gas prices around me have dropped to $1.65/gallon as of today, epa estimated fuel economy on my 2007 Prius is 46 mpg.
    315 mi / 46 mpg = 6.85 gallons. 6.85 gallons * $1.65/gallon = about $11.30 for 315 mi

    If the price of oil rises then gas prices will rise and the tables will turn, of course. If oil prices stay up for a while and natural gas production follows then wholesale electricity prices will rise over time to make up for transportation/operating costs.

    The only way out of this mess is with the wide adoption of renewables.

    If Elon is correct when speaking yesterday on Solar Roof really being cheaper than a normal roof then, in the future, since you need a roof anyway, charging you car will be virtually free. To me, that will be an amazing future I look forward to.
     
    • Like x 1
  7. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2020: Drain the Sewer

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    That future is available to me now without the beautiful Tesla roof. Next week I start my DIY install of standard, boring PV on a pole. It will work out to ~ $1.5 a watt installed, so about 3 cents a kWh over it's lifetime. Thus under a penny a mile for EV travel.
     
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  8. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    That sounds pretty sweet, hope you keep us updated.
     
  9. MorrisonHiker

    MorrisonHiker S 100D 2019.32.12.2

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    I had the video on in the background and heard when he mentioned tile roofs. Did he ever mention how it would compare to asphalt shingles?
     
  10. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    Not directly from what I could hear and at that he's hoping/pretty sure it'll be cheaper than tile.

    I'd say it'll probably be in between the cost of tile and asphalt. $10-20k if I had to speculate for an average sized house.
    One thing to consider though is the added value to the house in addition to savings on future electricity.

    If you're buying a new house you won't explicitly see the cost, if you're replacing tile then you'll save some money, so the only time it'll really dent the wallet is if upgrading from an asphalt roof to a solar roof. One might feel better about it though if it increases the sale price and aesthetics of their home.

    When I have the cash (someday), if it's available in my area, I'm going to do it whether or not my roof needs replacing.
     
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  11. Furioso

    Furioso New Member

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    All good and true, but upon checking this:
    Fuel-prices-europe.info - Current Fuel Prices in Europe

    ...fuel today, for me, costs around 5 US$ per gallon... :( :(
     
    • Informative x 1
  12. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    I've always felt sorry for Europeans and gasoline prices... granted, European cities and towns aren't as sprawling as those in the US so they don't need as much gas.

    If Europe and European automobile manufacturers start building legitimate EVs and take EVs seriously then I think we'll all be better off for it.
     
  13. dsvick

    dsvick Active Member

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    I think he is just referring to the already mentioned 400kWh. I don't see them creating some new, complicated, formula and restrictions to apply only to the Model 3 and I certainly don't see the 3 getting any sort of unlimited charging when the S and X aren't, and we know that they aren't based on the recent announcement.

    The 400kWh will be intended to facilitate long distance driving, in that people will be reluctant to use their allotment when close to home so that they can save it for when they need it on a trip.
     
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  14. dsvick

    dsvick Active Member

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    I don't think destination chargers figure into this at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, they are provided by the facility where they are located (hotel, restaurant, supermarket, etc.) as a free service to their customers. Sure you can pull up and use one but I think the expectation is that you'll also give the location some business as well.
     
  15. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    #35 ecarfan, Nov 18, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
    Elon said, quote: "Model 3, from the beginning we said free charging is not included in the Model 3 – free unlimited charging is not included, so, free long distance is, but not free local."

    I see no other way to interpret his most recent statement than: Model 3 free unlimited charging is included but not free local charging.

    How Tesla is going to implement that is unknown to us. There are a variety of possibilities.

    Yes, the recent announcement was that as of 1/1/2017 "all Teslas" or in a later followup announcement "Model S/X" will include 400kWh of Supercharging annually at no cost and after that level is reached there will be a charge. So they will no longer have free unlimited Superchargeing for life as was true in the past.

    But now Elon has stated that the Model 3 will include "free unlimited long distance charging" so it seems that things are not as simple as they seemed on Nov. 7th when Tesla made this blog post An Update to Our Supercharging Program .

    Obviously we need further clarification from Tesla.
     
  16. Garlan Garner

    Garlan Garner Supporting Member

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    It will be interesting to find out how this is going to be implemented - with their customers using the same hardware (SC's) for local and long distance.
     
  17. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    That fact is irrelevant to the issue of how Tesla decides to define whether a given Supercharging session is "local" or not.
     
  18. ModelNforNerd

    ModelNforNerd Active Member

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    Easy enough. The car talks to the Tesla network all the time, both on its own, and from the data it exchanges with the SC's.

    If you're within so many miles of home and not returning from a long trip, they can look at the distance from home and the SoC and determine that you're locally charging.

    On the other side of that, it's also easy for them to determine you're coming from 500 miles away, and stopped for enough electrons to make it home.
     
  19. Garlan Garner

    Garlan Garner Supporting Member

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    I missed what you are saying.

    Are you saying that its irrelevant because its inevitable - somehow?
     
  20. Garlan Garner

    Garlan Garner Supporting Member

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    That's possible.

    Problem is... there are multiple owners that have multiple homes.....miles and miles apart. Where is local for these people?
     

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