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Elon and influence on crypto currency markets

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Leaving aside the rather patronising tone, I would imagine most people can see at least some theoretical merit in blockchain for things like real estate ownership and the like.
What is very unclear is the merit of blockchain technology for currencies. There's an infinite number of crypto coins potentially available, each created out of thin air. They are not a viable medium of exchange, nor can they possibly be a store of value. Casino chips, yes - and a lot of folk have made a bomb over the last decade but only because of huge volatility. Musk is a case in point: there's been enough publicity these last few years about the huge energy expenditure of Bitcoin "mining" and someone with his savvy certainly was unaware of it. His tweeting, buying and selling was pure manipulation - and good luck to him playing the casino chips. Of course if he had lost a billion or two he's in a position to shrug it off, unlike thousands who are playing the same game with a big chunk of their savings, and without the financial muscle to change the price by the tweet.
Wasn't intended to patronise, but same could be said for someone consistently telling me my career is pointless and has no value to the world. Rotor2k hasn't listened to anything anyone has replied to him with, but just states more "facts" (which are far from factual). If this was on twitter I would imagine I am being trolled.

As for stating facts... why do you believe cryptocurrencies are not a viable medium of exchange or store of value?

Why is gold a viable store of value?
Why is a digital transfer of GBP any better than me sending you Nano instantly and feeless with no third parties or environmental overheads? (As an example crypto currency)

Why is a freely printed national currency any better?
 
It's quite fascinating to see what people perceive as "value".

Back in the 90s it was the proverbial suitcase of notes....

This entire thread is about volatility and people manipulating that - which I find hilarious, because the level of manipulation and volatility compared to semi recent history is tiny.

I still remember the Russian rouble crash in the 90s. Now that was volatility... And you couldn't choose not to *invest* in the rouble - you had your wage and by the end of the month it was worth nothing... Not to mention savings.

Then the 2007 banking crash...


Now people are butthurt after literally *buying* a prototype currency hoping to get rich with their spare money.

This generation is kind of lucky to have the option to invest their savings into something other than FIAT.
 
Wasn't intended to patronise, but same could be said for someone consistently telling me my career is pointless and has no value to the world. Rotor2k hasn't listened to anything anyone has replied to him with, but just states more "facts" (which are far from factual). If this was on twitter I would imagine I am being trolled.

As for stating facts... why do you believe cryptocurrencies are not a viable medium of exchange or store of value?

Why is gold a viable store of value?
Why is a digital transfer of GBP any better than me sending you Nano instantly and feeless with no third parties or environmental overheads? (As an example crypto currency)

Why is a freely printed national currency any better?

Probably not the place to discuss the ins and outs of them except for the involvement of Musk, but.....
In the apocalypse scenario, of course, gold is as useless as anything else - tins of beans would have value as store of it.
Gold is a store of value because it is held by states as such. So called fiat currency is a store of value inasmuch as it's backed at least in theory by states. Independent cryptos are not backed by anything except faith, which can evaporate as quickly as it is generated.
The 21 million top of Bitcoin is only a number and with several thousand Bitcoin competitors out there the number of virtual "coins" is potentially infinite. OK, that allows folk to trade in and out but it's merely betting, not storing value. Then there's the environmental cost, including vast energy use and now a shortage of hard drives because so many are being taken up by such actors as Chia.
It's not going to turn out well.
 
Probably not the place to discuss the ins and outs of them except for the involvement of Musk, but.....
In the apocalypse scenario, of course, gold is as useless as anything else - tins of beans would have value as store of it.
Gold is a store of value because it is held by states as such. So called fiat currency is a store of value inasmuch as it's backed at least in theory by states. Independent cryptos are not backed by anything except faith, which can evaporate as quickly as it is generated.
The 21 million top of Bitcoin is only a number and with several thousand Bitcoin competitors out there the number of virtual "coins" is potentially infinite. OK, that allows folk to trade in and out but it's merely betting, not storing value. Then there's the environmental cost, including vast energy use and now a shortage of hard drives because so many are being taken up by such actors as Chia.
It's not going to turn out well.
My point was it is perfectly reasonable to place value in Bitcoin as it is in gold. It has both scarcity and utility. You are right that it is based on faith, but the economic model is actually genius. Every 4 years or so we have the halvening and bitcoin 10x in price. It's built in to it's very design.

Bitcoin will become greener if not entirely green.

You believe it won't end well. And a fair few here believe cryptos have no future. We will all just have to see how it turns out.

Personally I believe digital assets will become the largest asset class in the world, and the financial system will one day be completely cryptocurrency based. That's a little way off, but of course that's why we have such disagreement here - it's easy to create arguments for and against something that is so early.
 
Probably not the place to discuss the ins and outs of them except for the involvement of Musk, but.....
In the apocalypse scenario, of course, gold is as useless as anything else - tins of beans would have value as store of it.
Gold is a store of value because it is held by states as such. So called fiat currency is a store of value inasmuch as it's backed at least in theory by states. Independent cryptos are not backed by anything except faith, which can evaporate as quickly as it is generated.
The 21 million top of Bitcoin is only a number and with several thousand Bitcoin competitors out there the number of virtual "coins" is potentially infinite. OK, that allows folk to trade in and out but it's merely betting, not storing value. Then there's the environmental cost, including vast energy use and now a shortage of hard drives because so many are being taken up by such actors as Chia.
It's not going to turn out well.
Gold has an intrinsic value because as a metal it is the best choice in a number of practical applications. Even if you completely invalidated its appeal for jewellry etc it would still be useful. Obviously in the apocalypse scenario things would get inverted and foodstuffs would become currency, etc but that's such an extreme take that it isn't really worth considering beyond academically.

The problem - as this action has demonstrated - causing another big drop, is that The Man that the true believers revel in pointing out can't control cryptos doesn't have to try and regulate them, they only need to regulate the mechanism by which you convert it to or from fiat. Since most if not all FOMO retail investors are just thinking about the gains (in fiat) they are making, if you suddenly can't convert those paper gains into actual fiat currency that they can buy Lambos, etc with - what is the point? You might as well be trading Panini stickers.

If legislators make it so it's illegal for banks to process fiat going to or from crypto exchanges, or - more likely I think - obliges them with AMC/KYC responsibilities, as well as seeking to tax the movement of fiat, then reality will hit a lot of these zealots in the face, I think.

Obviously some cryptos can have a future within the whole blockchain space, although that also feels like a bit of a nascent space - several years after it's inception. I think, however, that this could be a watershed moment for the viability of Bitcoin and other cryptos like it as "stores of value".
 
Gold has an intrinsic value because as a metal it is the best choice in a number of practical applications. Even if you completely invalidated its appeal for jewellry etc it would still be useful. Obviously in the apocalypse scenario things would get inverted and foodstuffs would become currency, etc but that's such an extreme take that it isn't really worth considering beyond academically.

The problem - as this action has demonstrated - causing another big drop, is that The Man that the true believers revel in pointing out can't control cryptos doesn't have to try and regulate them, they only need to regulate the mechanism by which you convert it to or from fiat. Since most if not all FOMO retail investors are just thinking about the gains (in fiat) they are making, if you suddenly can't convert those paper gains into actual fiat currency that they can buy Lambos, etc with - what is the point? You might as well be trading Panini stickers.

If legislators make it so it's illegal for banks to process fiat going to or from crypto exchanges, or - more likely I think - obliges them with AMC/KYC responsibilities, as well as seeking to tax the movement of fiat, then reality will hit a lot of these zealots in the face, I think.

Obviously some cryptos can have a future within the whole blockchain space, although that also feels like a bit of a nascent space - several years after it's inception. I think, however, that this could be a watershed moment for the viability of Bitcoin and other cryptos like it as "stores of value".
I'm not so sure it's that simple.
In many South American countries with volatile currencies and collapsing economies, it was also illegal to trade in USD, the local currency being the official one.
And yet, USD was the currency "de facto" on the streets and for every day living.
I agree that making crypto illegal would more than likely spell its death knell.... but I don't think that would NECESSARILY happen.
 

Very interesting podcast relating to much of the conversation here, recommend a listen.
 
Yes, interesting. But it doesn’t address the fundamental, the basic issue.
There seem to be two almost universally accepted taboos in free speech. One is criticising religion, the other is mentioning overpopulation in the context of resources, energy, pollution etc.
It is a fact that technology has allowed us to increase our numbers way beyond what the planet could support pre industrial times, but this has been at the cost of using up natural capital such as fossil fuels and of polluting the environment.
So yes, the externalities of ALL economic models have to be examined - but the basic problem of our numbers is still there.
 
Yes, interesting. But it doesn’t address the fundamental, the basic issue.
There seem to be two almost universally accepted taboos in free speech. One is criticising religion, the other is mentioning overpopulation in the context of resources, energy, pollution etc.
It is a fact that technology has allowed us to increase our numbers way beyond what the planet could support pre industrial times, but this has been at the cost of using up natural capital such as fossil fuels and of polluting the environment.
So yes, the externalities of ALL economic models have to be examined - but the basic problem of our numbers is still there.
This should probably be a different thread... You have many views there. Other than criticism of existing models, do you have any suggestions for improvement?
 
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