Elon: Autopilot, new constraints on when it can be used

[Soolim]

I think that YouTube video is the problem. Tesla should probably mail it to her insurance company and see what happens next. That might be the best move.

I don't think that will work for the community, because I don't think the insurance will be selective. Likely, it will be to the detriment of all.

 

[TMS]

So here is Volvo's approach to autopilot (to be implemented sometime in 2016/2017): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K1mya0yRsU
Their system will only allow AP on certain roads/highways, and as discussed earlier in this thread, this is a possible constraint that Tesla might be thinking about (personally, I don't like this nanny approach!). As you can see in the video, autopilot for Volvo means "hands free" driving, and this how it should be, at least on "approved" roads, otherwise, AP would be meaningless. Volvo by the way uses 4 cameras, 4 radars, 12 sonar sensors (like Tesla) and a laser scanner, but still doesn't offer more functions than Tesla's AP!
They even advertise AP on their website as "Autonomous driving"! see here:

Tesla has done an incredible job with the current AP hardware, and will probably add even more features in the next software version. I personally support Elon in pushing the technology forward, but without putting too many constraints that render the system useless.

 

[snellenr]

I tend to agree with Douglas Adams -- never underestimate the ingenuity of fools.

I don't think there's any way to make this foolproof. They don't even have proper sensors to tell whether your hands are on the wheel. Detecting whether someone is looking forward is... error-prone, particularly with sunglasses. Et cetera.

I think that YouTube video is the problem. Tesla should probably mail it to her insurance company and see what happens next. That might be the best move.

Speaking as a shareholder, I really hope that Tesla is capturing and downloading some telemetry (including video) any time a collision occurs.

 

[sillydriver]

While some manufacturers want to switch it off if they don't detect hands on the wheel, Tesla should do the opposite. If they detect hands off the wheel, they should turn it on. They should call that a safety feature and tell you not to rely on it any more than you'd rely on active emergency braking to stop the car instead of using the brake pedal.

I think this is a very interesting point. However, because it is safer if the driver has to positively engage AP for normal automated driving, I think the 'safety feature' mode should turn on if hands are off the wheel for more than a second, but should go into 'hands on wheel' nag mode after 5 - 10 seconds, and then gradually slow and pull to the side with blinkers flashing if the nag is ignored. Positively-engaged normal AP mode should be without timed nags, the same as it is now.

 

[m6bigdog]

I understand your argument, it's the whole "Let's get to autonomous ... so let's avoid people making any mistakes.

There was a good podcast about this topic (Big red button, planet money) about Googles self driving car, and going straight to autonomous because people are stupid. It also brought up the example of the plane crash that was on autopilot, and then when the AP kicked off, the pilot panicked, over-reacted, and crashed the plane.

While I can see that perspective, I completely disagree with it. AP will save lives, if it hasn't already. You have to weigh if it saved more lives than it cost? I would bet the answer is yes.

I don't think restricting it to where it's close to it's limit is the proper solution.
-....?

I couldn't disagree more, Autopilot as implemented will not save lives if the driver expects more from the Autopilot system than it is capable of delivering.
It is a tool, an aid, for the attentive driver not a replacement for your full attention; eyes on the road, hands on the wheel and foot positioned to brake!!

That is, a camera and radar data fed into a computer running an artificial intelligence algorithm is no substitute for the full time human eyes and a brain assessing the near and far field activities to avoiding the perils that constantly crisscross in front of a vehicle traveling at speed.

An inattentive driver with poor driving habits will always cause accidents!
The same inattentive driver that uses Autopilot beyond its capability will continue to cause accidents!
The only difference is whether the inattentive driver will blame Tesla Autopilot for the accident.

So how would Autopilot save lives? I anticipate autopilot just gets the inattentive driver a few miles further down the road before the accident.

I anticipate Tesla doesn't need the bad publicity, hits to their safety image, so drivers can blame Tesla for their inattentiveness and poor driving habits.

So guess what, they will turn it off if Tesla owners can't adjust to the Autopilot concept and rules without causing Tesla a lot of grief.

Even an airplane with autopilot in the hands of a instrument rated pilot will cause crashes that an attentive pilot knowledgeable in autopilot limitations will avoided.
The difference is airplane pilots using autopilot are highly trained!!

 

[Max*]

Autopilot as implemented will not save lives if the driver expects more from the Autopilot system than it is capable of delivering.

Autopilot as implemented will not save lives if the driver expects more from the Autopilot system than it is capable of delivering.

if

if

if

So you're arguing with me on a statement that you preface with if? OK. If the sun were closer, we'd all be dead. What's your point, again?

- - - Updated - - -

It is a tool, an aid, for the attentive driver not a replacement for your full attention

Care to show me where I said that it was a replacement for your full attention? Or even part of your attention? Show me just one time, in context, where I said that. Don't think you can.

That is, a camera and radar data fed into a computer running an artificial intelligence algorithm is no substitute for the full time human eyes and a brain assessing the near and far field activities to avoiding the perils that constantly crisscross in front of a vehicle traveling at speed.

1. It's not AI. It's machine learning. There is a huge difference.
2. A computer can and will react a faster than an attentive driver. It will also react MUCH faster than an inattentive driver. And if you're going to tell me that you are 100% attentive 100% of the time,I will call you a lair. Everyone's eyes wander for that split second to <fill in the blank> and guess what, that's exactly when accidents happen.

An inattentive driver with poor driving habits will always cause accidents!

No argument here.

The same inattentive driver that uses Autopilot beyond its capability will continue to cause accidents!

There you go again, adding stipulations to MY argument. I never said anything about using AP beyond it's capabilities.

If I drive the Tesla at 155mph into a 90 degree turn, I will cause an accident! I'm using the car beyond it's capabilities. Let's pull Tesla's and all cars off the market. :huh:

The only difference is whether the inattentive driver will blame Tesla Autopilot for the accident.

What's with you and inattentive driving?

So how would Autopilot save lives? I anticipate autopilot just gets the inattentive driver a few miles further down the road before the accident.

Because the car will drive safer, keep the center of the lane, not drift out of lane, not spend too much time looking out the window when you should be looking forward, it will keep a safe following distance, etc.

Yes, you can attribute some of these to TACC (Level 1 autonomous), and some of these to AP (Level 2 autonomous), but they apply to both the attentive driver and inattentive driver. You could be the most attentive driver ever, but I guarantee you've swerved over a double solid line at least once in your life. Did it cause an accident? No, good, but with AP it'll be even less likely to cause an accident and kill someone.

AP isn't a tool to let you drive exhausted. AP is a tool to let you concentrate on the bigger picture of the road, look around you at cars and their behavior, while your car keeps it's lane and a safe following distance from the car in front of it.

So guess what, they will turn it off if Tesla owners can't adjust to the Autopilot concept and rules without causing Tesla a lot of grief.

I'm glad you know exactly what Tesla is thinking.

Even an airplane with autopilot in the hands of a instrument rated pilot will cause crashes that an attentive pilot knowledgeable in autopilot limitations will avoided.
The difference is airplane pilots using autopilot are highly trained!!

Did you listen to the podcast I linked above? It discussed this exact situation.