Why not simply say the cars are 5 years ahead of the competition and we will continue to innovate at the right time and pace? Instead they are literally a joke to him.
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Elon Confirms S & X Are Chopped Liver
- Thread starter john85775
- Start date
Why not simply say the cars are 5 years ahead of the competition and we will continue to innovate at the right time and pace? Instead they are literally a joke to him.
The S is lacking a huge amount of features compared with its competitors from Germany. Back in 2014 or even 2017 I was willing to accept those lack of features because Tesla had some other features like the giant nav screen, streaming music, phone app and such. Today that's a much harder sell to make as the Germans have caught up in that regard. Tesla has also shot themselves in the foot by getting rid of some of the things that used to make the cars unique, like the bowling alley and the big frunk.
I'm going to be replacing one of our Ss in a year or two and if its the same interior then as it is now, it won't be with another Tesla. I want a better HVAC system, better sound and vibration dampening, auto wipers that actually work, real leather seats that are ventilated, and an interior that looks like it belongs in a $90k car.
I'm going to be replacing one of our Ss in a year or two and if its the same interior then as it is now, it won't be with another Tesla. I want a better HVAC system, better sound and vibration dampening, auto wipers that actually work, real leather seats that are ventilated, and an interior that looks like it belongs in a $90k car.
They've made four major revisions to the car in seven years, including one only three months ago, and a constant stream of minor changes.
Not sure how that's leaving it to die on the vine.
(Dual motor changed a lot of other things, including location of the 12V battery and the chargeport door, Front end refresh and related changes, AP2.5 changed the whole 12V power structure to the modular e-fuse system of the 3 and Y, and now Raven with new powertrain and suspension.)
Xenius
Active Member
I'm obviously not talking with someone who cares about the environmental aspects or the future here, so I'll leave that out.
Are 'real' leather ventilated seats that much better when you can't remotely cool said car down?
Vibration dampening is pretty much a must in a 'luxury' ICE care that's creating multiple explosions per second in front of you.
Really, the sound? Are you an audiophile? My 2016 S sounds great, and the new ones sound even better. I like music.
When you look at the actual energy usage on an S, including charging losses, and vampire drain, and look at the power generation mix of electricity in my area, the S isn't any better than an ICE. In the future, with more renewables? Sure, but in the near term, no.
As I've said the Germans have mostly caught up, you can remotely cool down the new BMWs.
The AC in my S is louder, and generates far more vibration than an ICE in any modern luxury car.
Xenius
Active Member
"When you look at the actual energy usage on an S, including charging losses, and vampire drain, and look at the power generation mix of electricity in my area, the S isn't any better than an ICE. In the future, with more renewables? Sure, but in the near term, no."
I hightly, highly doubt that is true. There's been multiple studies showing the dirtiest electric powered car is still (over it's lifetime) cleaner than an ICE vehicle. And if you're talking german luxury models, I know you're MPG isn't going to be good, so they're dirtier still.
I hightly, highly doubt that is true. There's been multiple studies showing the dirtiest electric powered car is still (over it's lifetime) cleaner than an ICE vehicle. And if you're talking german luxury models, I know you're MPG isn't going to be good, so they're dirtier still.
The problem is that to most people outside of the Tesla community (i.e. existing A7, E-Class etc drivers) the Model S hasn't fundamentally changed since launch. The only obvious visual change is the nose, but that's it. Sure, there's been 100's, if not 1000's of changes 'under the hood', but most people don't care about that. If they're going to spend 100k on a car, they want something that isn't going to go out of date next year.
Inside the community, many S owners, me included, have been burned by changes coming out just after buying one, so many of us just don't really trust Elon when he's saying there's no major refresh coming. He didn't regard the nose facelift as a refresh, so the terminology becomes meaningless.
So the current strategy Elon appears to be adopting has the risk of alienating both current and potential owners. He's no fool, maybe that's entirely deliberate, but that is a consequence.
According to the EIA, in 2017 power generated in NJ produced 527 pounds of CO2 per MWh:
EIA - State Electricity Profiles
A long range Raven S requires 30 kWh per 100 miles per the EPA, including charging losses:
2019 Tesla Model S Long Range
In the Phoenix heat, I averaged about .8 miles lost per hour with cabin overheat and Sentry mode active, which is likely the worst plausible vampire drain. That's an additional 7,012 miles per year.
So the extreme drain case here requires (19012*30/100) = 5704 kWh per year for the average 12000 mile driver, resulting in (5.704*527) = 3006 pounds of CO2.
A gallon of gas burned results in 20 pounds of CO2 created. So for the average 12,000 mile per year driver, you'd need a car that gets (3006/20) = 150 gallons of gas, (12000/150) = 80 EPA mpg to be equal in GHG emissions to this very conservative case.
No German Luxury car is going to manage that.
That's the average 12k driver though. With 7000 miles of vampire drain, the case will close, somewhere...
Looking at four German Luxury sedans that seem more or less comparable, they all average about 22 EPA mpg on Premium:
Compare Side-by-Side
So if they are producing (20/22)= 0.909 pounds per mile, and the S is resulting in (.000527*300) = .158 pounds per mile plus (7012 * .158) = 1109 pounds from the extreme drain case, .909x = .158x + 1109, then .751x = 1109, x = 1477 miles.
If you drive a modern German Luxury car less than 1500 miles per year in NJ then you'll produce less GHG than if you drive a Raven S the same distance and leave it in Sentry mode 24/7 in hot places.
EIA - State Electricity Profiles
A long range Raven S requires 30 kWh per 100 miles per the EPA, including charging losses:
2019 Tesla Model S Long Range
In the Phoenix heat, I averaged about .8 miles lost per hour with cabin overheat and Sentry mode active, which is likely the worst plausible vampire drain. That's an additional 7,012 miles per year.
So the extreme drain case here requires (19012*30/100) = 5704 kWh per year for the average 12000 mile driver, resulting in (5.704*527) = 3006 pounds of CO2.
A gallon of gas burned results in 20 pounds of CO2 created. So for the average 12,000 mile per year driver, you'd need a car that gets (3006/20) = 150 gallons of gas, (12000/150) = 80 EPA mpg to be equal in GHG emissions to this very conservative case.
No German Luxury car is going to manage that.
That's the average 12k driver though. With 7000 miles of vampire drain, the case will close, somewhere...
Looking at four German Luxury sedans that seem more or less comparable, they all average about 22 EPA mpg on Premium:
Compare Side-by-Side
So if they are producing (20/22)= 0.909 pounds per mile, and the S is resulting in (.000527*300) = .158 pounds per mile plus (7012 * .158) = 1109 pounds from the extreme drain case, .909x = .158x + 1109, then .751x = 1109, x = 1477 miles.
If you drive a modern German Luxury car less than 1500 miles per year in NJ then you'll produce less GHG than if you drive a Raven S the same distance and leave it in Sentry mode 24/7 in hot places.
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geowhjr
Member
Hmmm, I'm used to just dismissing naysayers of my MS, even from friends. From Elon I'm taking it kind of personal.
It's broken. SPL from an X A/C is, when all is well, about 58 dBA measured about 3 feet from the car in front of the right headlight. There is no perceptible vibration from the A/C or blower when they are running normally. For reference a SPL measurement at the same distance and location from my Lexus SUV reads 70 dBA (idle). Can't tell if the Lexus A/C makes less noise than the A/C in the Tesla because engine noise masks it.
Best thread title I've seen in a while
And yes, Elon was quite dismissive about S & X. Every brand needs a halo product, but it seems he's focused on production efficiency, which neither the S or X in their present form meet that criteria. I think Tesla needs to be really careful, there's plenty of existing S owners waiting for an interior refresh, but if they leave S & X on the vine and only focus on the Truck and Y, then they're leaving money on the table. I get the exterior might not change since there's far more cost in doing that, but the interior pales in comparison to most of it's peers. It's nice, but it's no longer $100k+ nice.
Not that much money apparently. The number crunchers have clearly already determined there is more money to be made from the 3/Y/Truck/Semi. The S & X are niche vehicles that won't have mass market appeal. Its like the Denalis, do we really think GM is making a lot of money on those? obviously not, they make more money selling the regular suburbans.
So while everyone is expecting a super different S/X, we'll just see minor upgrades. On the bright side, anyone who buys a car now probably won't be missing out on too many new things next year. my car is 6 months early from the new raven upgrades, but meh its whatever i still like my car.
twonius
Member
I see S/X resting on their laurels until a year or two after Taycan is out for S and maybe a 3 row SUV from someone
Finish this sentence:
"Model S hasn't had its styling updated in 4 years. I think I'll buy a ______ instead"
And really with Raven they're not even standing still.
Finish this sentence:
"Model S hasn't had its styling updated in 4 years. I think I'll buy a ______ instead"
And really with Raven they're not even standing still.
Cmon. Almost a decade of musk in the spotlight, and you expect him to say something watered down or diplomatic rather than focus aggressively and set too-high expectations on his path ahead? This is how he’s driven the company since day 1. I think it is refreshing.
"Model S hasn't had its styling updated in 4 years. I think I'll buy nothing for now instead"
For Model S, I think just a relatively basic upgrade of the interior would trigger a bunch of existing owners to update, especially pre-AP2, since all the meaningful s/w updates requite that. I'm not fussed about whether they move S & X to the Model 3 dash style, but there's a few things they could do that are 'easy':
- Auto open doors (port from Model X)
- Vented seats
- Door bins
- Improved audio
The Y will be the real big seller. Look around, everyone drives a SUV/CUV and under $50K is a sweet spot. The Y volumes will make Model 3 sales look small.
twonius
Member
Hey! I like the switchgear!
Additional AP functionality seems to be the lever they're pulling to induce Fomo. but the trade in values they're offering are also a pretty bitter pill to swallow right now for anyone who didn't lease.
Tesla's paint booth is pretty maxed out at this point but considering how many people do additional protection for the notoriously soft paint I keep thinking they should look into how far they can drive the price of vinyl wrap down in volume to provide a wider color pallet and a high margin option. But I'm also a crazy person. (see switchgear)
As for an interior refresh, it'd probably help with service costs for NVH issues but I'm not sure what kind of NRE's they'd have to go through to get it re-certified for crash compliance. My guess is changing too much isn't worth it until you want to do another major chassis change.
The logical endpoint is for the S to move on to a stretched version of the 3 platform but that'll have to get in line behind the Y.
Tesla is making a big Mistake with the S & X's. The prices have gone dramatically lower over the past 2 years and the options have also gone away making each car the same with just a different color.
I purchased my Model S in 2016 for $113k it was a 90D with almost all options and the same or close vehicle can be purchased today for $30k less. They should have kept the S & X as higher end vehicles and should have keep modernizing it and there would still be a market for it at the older higher prices helping the company with making a profit. You cant even buy a new Model S with a sun roof... That in my mind is just crazy.
They are putting more technology into the Model 3 so why would someone want to pay more for the Model S? People will buy the less profitable Model 3 which will hurt the company in the long run..
I purchased my Model S in 2016 for $113k it was a 90D with almost all options and the same or close vehicle can be purchased today for $30k less. They should have kept the S & X as higher end vehicles and should have keep modernizing it and there would still be a market for it at the older higher prices helping the company with making a profit. You cant even buy a new Model S with a sun roof... That in my mind is just crazy.
They are putting more technology into the Model 3 so why would someone want to pay more for the Model S? People will buy the less profitable Model 3 which will hurt the company in the long run..
twonius
Member
If pricing on the S had remained similar wouldn't they have an even bigger drop in S sales on their hands?
At this level an S seems like a somewhat logical step up for someone who can afford a M3P but isn't in love with the styling or interior, or just likes a bigger car.
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