Krugerrand
Meow
It has plenty of meaning. I don't have a large tank. Gas happens to be costly. Last summer I couldn't fill it for $60. Did my tank suddenly get smaller? No.
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Elon discusses showing Tesla Pricing as reflective of annual gasoline savings
- Thread starter Law&Disorder
- Start date
It has plenty of meaning. I don't have a large tank. Gas happens to be costly. Last summer I couldn't fill it for $60. Did my tank suddenly get smaller? No.
green1
Active Member
it's like the car companies that brag their car is efficient because it can go x distance on a tank, a completely useless statistic unless you know the size of said tank. The price you pay to fill up tells us nothing unless we know how far you can go on that amount of fuel.
Krugerrand
Meow
A little math goes a long way. Everyone can ballpark the average price of fuel in my 'location'. I clearly don't have a 20 gallon tank. I clearly have at least a 10 gallon tank. Don't be obtuse.
green1
Active Member
don't think it's us being obtuse here, and i have no clue what fuel price is in your area, do you know off hand what it is in mine? Or even what fuel I use? Big difference between regular and premium, and that's ignoring diesel and propane.
and even if i could figure out the price of your fuel, i could still only figure out the size of your tank, which is still a completely useless metric for figuring out how much you use without knowing either the distance that takes you, or the fuel efficiency of your vehicle.
and even if i could figure out the price of your fuel, i could still only figure out the size of your tank, which is still a completely useless metric for figuring out how much you use without knowing either the distance that takes you, or the fuel efficiency of your vehicle.
Much of that gas savings will be eaten up by more frequent tire replacements - especially with the 21" tires - and higher insurance costs.
And servicing my BMW is cheaper since it includes 4 years. I extended it to 7 years of service for $1600 total.
None of this impacted my decision to buy the car and I much rather see the actual purchase price since it is not presenting a complete picture - owning a car is more than just paying for gas.
And servicing my BMW is cheaper since it includes 4 years. I extended it to 7 years of service for $1600 total.
None of this impacted my decision to buy the car and I much rather see the actual purchase price since it is not presenting a complete picture - owning a car is more than just paying for gas.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
I have to disagree each time I see the tire comment. I've had a lot of cars in the MS' price/performance arena and ALL of them chew up tires, especially rears. BMWs use those horrible run flats which are bloody expensive.
When talking apples to apples, Tesla's rear tire wear is not bad. Add on to it that Tesla has slowly migrated away from the set up that was driving that wear. You notice you do not hear anywhere near as many stories about people "cording" tires these days.
When talking apples to apples, Tesla's rear tire wear is not bad. Add on to it that Tesla has slowly migrated away from the set up that was driving that wear. You notice you do not hear anywhere near as many stories about people "cording" tires these days.
I agree. Tire usage corresponds directly with how you drive. When I once took a performance driving class they said they have to replace tires every 500 miles.
As for the "gasoline savings," it is a bunch of sleazy nonsense and I wish they'd stop with it. With our V8 BMW our gasoline cost was just around $900 a year because we live in the middle of the city and drive short distances.
I guess insurance costs vary widely. My previous car was a 4cylinder Altima 2005. When I bought my Tesla, my insurance cost remained the same as insuring my Altima (which I no longer have).
Well (the gas savings slight-of-hand on pricing) it does server as the warning beacon for the experience to come with Tesla. Some others contend it is "Elon getting in front of himself", me I call it a persistent habit of "truth bending", not unilaterally a lie but not exactly the full disclosure either.
I know I would just appreciate the clear "facts" as the clear Tesla mission statement default behavior. Yes, it is clearly an expensive car and that is the truth, but take this into consideration (no gas, tax credit).
I know I would just appreciate the clear "facts" as the clear Tesla mission statement default behavior. Yes, it is clearly an expensive car and that is the truth, but take this into consideration (no gas, tax credit).
brucet999
Active Member
When the discussion is centered about subtracting 5 years' fuel savings from posted price of a MS, cost to fill your tank is indeed meaningless.
Krugerrand
Meow
Perhaps that's not where the discussion should be centered then. Do you buy an ICE car and never consider the cost of fuel (and maintenance, and insurance) with that price tag to see if you can actually afford to own and drive it? It seems to me people are taking the website listing as somehow a personal affront. At worst it's creative marketing and absolutely serves to get people talking about at least one of the other costs associated with car ownership that people conveniently forget to consider.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
As a few people know (oh hey, AO), I was equally annoyed over using fuel savings to lower the stated payment cost of the Model S. But I'm changing my opinion after reading many of these posts.
We (the royal 'TMC We') automatically factor in things like fuel costs/savings, because we're well-versed in the costs. (I additionally factor in cost associated with rear tires because of my bad acceleration habits.) But what about the general public who are first looking into buying the vehicle? We all have stories about the silly questions we're asked. How many times have you explained supercharging and 'it's free!! No, really! For life!'?
Factoring in gas savings automatically gets the point across to people who just wouldn't have thought about that. No one is tricked - I think we'd be hard pressed to find a single person who bought the car and then says 'I didn't realize my payments were going to be this much more'.
Yeah, it turns me off at first glance, just like most of you. But I think it's probably doing the job it was meant to do - quickly educate a large segment of the population. As brand-awareness grows, Tesla will need to get this info out again and again. I'm sure they'll eventually find another way. Maybe. Dunno.
But I'm not bothered about this like I was when I first saw it. No one is getting tricked, it's not a dealershi* trick of adding a new hidden cost that is snuck in at the last moment as you're signing paperwork.
We (the royal 'TMC We') automatically factor in things like fuel costs/savings, because we're well-versed in the costs. (I additionally factor in cost associated with rear tires because of my bad acceleration habits.) But what about the general public who are first looking into buying the vehicle? We all have stories about the silly questions we're asked. How many times have you explained supercharging and 'it's free!! No, really! For life!'?
Factoring in gas savings automatically gets the point across to people who just wouldn't have thought about that. No one is tricked - I think we'd be hard pressed to find a single person who bought the car and then says 'I didn't realize my payments were going to be this much more'.
Yeah, it turns me off at first glance, just like most of you. But I think it's probably doing the job it was meant to do - quickly educate a large segment of the population. As brand-awareness grows, Tesla will need to get this info out again and again. I'm sure they'll eventually find another way. Maybe. Dunno.
But I'm not bothered about this like I was when I first saw it. No one is getting tricked, it's not a dealershi* trick of adding a new hidden cost that is snuck in at the last moment as you're signing paperwork.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Not underestimating the wisdom, only the exposure to the information.
Like any change, people need to be exposed to the facts before they can make decision in their best interests. My comment has nothing to do with the wisdom of the masses, but more focused on the 'how to impart the information needed'.I think now is the time for Tesla to be getting EVs on daytime and primetime television, so that plugging in and not going to gas stations can be just part of the background dialogue. We all grew up going to the gas station with our parents in ICE vehicles - so things like remembering to check the oil is just something we 'knew'. EVs are a new paradigm and how Tesla gets across new messages like 'no more paying for gas' is the challenge ahead.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
One problem I have with the Tesla website is that it makes a blanket deduction that doesn't take into account the wide variety of driving habits and fuel types.
A second problem: yes, TCO matters, but TCO is different from the upfront price. When I'm buying a car, I want to know (1) initial cost, or "can I write the check for this? And (2) ongoing costs, or "will this be financially sustainable?" This includes not just fuel, but maintenance and insurance as well. I have never considered fuel to be an upfront cost.
What Tesla is doing is incorrectly lowering initial cost with an ongoing cost item.
This is why I disagree with Elon on the way price is presented.
I think it's dumb and I would say this to the face of anyone in charge of Tesla marketing.
Krugerrand
Meow
Correct. Tesla had to 'generalize'. Oh, the horror!
He has a different way of viewing the world as a whole. Sometimes we won't agree with his view, even one that he came to after much thought (per his twitter reference). It's all good, regardless, because at least it makes people sit up and take notice of Tesla. There will be plenty of people who have never thought to consider the fuel savings an EV like the Model S will provide, but they sure will now - dumb approach or not.
Do you have to defend them on everything and try and minimize anyone who has constructive criticism? They should list the cash price then right below it list price after incentives and them have empty boxes boxes where you enter average mpg and mileage driven per year.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I think the point being missed when this is called 'film flam' or whatever ... there isn't a single person who looks at the pricing who will think it's something that it's not. This isn't a last-minute bait and switch. People will look at the price, see it includes 'gas savings' (and probably be annoyed), and then look at the real price (but will also be thinking what they actually spend/month).
This is NOT the same as some of the crap we've experienced at dealerships. Do I like it? Not particularly. Do I think it's the horrible thing people are making it out to be? Nahhh.
Here's the deal: Either people will be annoyed and Tesla will change how they get that information across or they won't be annoyed. But no one will be fooled.
This is NOT the same as some of the crap we've experienced at dealerships. Do I like it? Not particularly. Do I think it's the horrible thing people are making it out to be? Nahhh.
Here's the deal: Either people will be annoyed and Tesla will change how they get that information across or they won't be annoyed. But no one will be fooled.
Price, as in the amount you need to write a check/borrow for to receive the car, should be front and center. After that, they should have a line to display tax incentives. Then the potential fuel savings could be added in. I think Tesla got the order wrong in their desire to emphasize low running costs.
Estimated fuel savings over 5 years are included in the Monroney Sticker, presumably to prevent "creative" advertising on fuel costs/savings. (My 2013 P85 Monroney sticker estimated $8100 in fuel savings over 5 years). As Tesla doesn't have cars sitting on a lot with these stickers, it might be a good idea to display a digital Monroney sticker when you configure a car to display fuel savings.
Estimated fuel savings over 5 years are included in the Monroney Sticker, presumably to prevent "creative" advertising on fuel costs/savings. (My 2013 P85 Monroney sticker estimated $8100 in fuel savings over 5 years). As Tesla doesn't have cars sitting on a lot with these stickers, it might be a good idea to display a digital Monroney sticker when you configure a car to display fuel savings.
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