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We do, however, place restrictions on speech. I'm free to criticize the government while standing on a street corner, without fear of retaliation from the government. I am not, however, free to yell "fire" in a crowded square, tell a stranger that I'm going to murder him and his family, or make false claims, harming someone - such as calling someone a child molester when they are not.

Many examples, like those above, are black and white and easy to recognize. But when things get subjective, it's harder to stand on constitutional certitude. The problem is when people walk the fine line, and make false statements, but carefully crafted to be opinions. Those educated in critical thinking can usually see past the hyperbole. But some people will be swayed by those statements, which could lead to counterproductive and antisocial behaviors.

Here are some examples:

Dewg is a murderer
I think Dewg may be a murderer
I've been hearing things that make me believe Dewg is a murderer
If you look at his past, and what's he's done recently, you'll conclude that Dewg is a murderer

All these statements are intending to alter the thinking of the recipient that Dewg is a murder. But which ones are illegal, not protected by "free speech", and which ones are protected by "free speech"?

My apologies for this little side-bar that took us farther off topic in a Tesla forum. :)
Your example is exactly why I say a better term is "freedom of expression." In this light, it's a bit easier to accept the Supreme Court jurisprudence here. Yelling fire in a theater is not an expression of one's thoughts or beliefs, but instead is violative of others rights, and thus not protected speech (under the First Amendment). Similarly, speech meant to defame another individual, e.g. calling Dewg a murderer, is also not an expression of one's thoughts or beliefs, and thus not protected speech. Saying that you think Dewg is a murderer if you, in fact, think Dewg is a murderer, is an expression, and is not defamatory, thus constitutes protected speech.

Would some people be swayed by false and defamatory statements? Maybe, but it's better that free expression, including thoughts and expressions of hate, bigotry, violence, misogyny, and the like, be given the light of day so that such ideas can be countered with rational rebuttal instead of driven into dark corners where they swell and fester.
 
Your example is exactly why I say a better term is "freedom of expression." In this light, it's a bit easier to accept the Supreme Court jurisprudence here. Yelling fire in a theater is not an expression of one's thoughts or beliefs, but instead is violative of others rights, and thus not protected speech (under the First Amendment).



So the fire in a theatre thing is often misquoted like this.

It's from Schenck v. United States, where Justice Oliver Wendel Holmes Jr wrote for a unanimous court "The most stringent protection of free speed would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic"

Folks frequently leave out the bolded parts, which are the most important... and then add crowded which is both irrelevant and not in the actual quote.

This decision was later narrowed further (on what speech the government could forbid) in Brandenburg v. Ohio, to only allow such restriction when the speech is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action. That remains the current standard in US law.


Similarly, speech meant to defame another individual, e.g. calling Dewg a murderer, is also not an expression of one's thoughts or beliefs, and thus not protected speech. Saying that you think Dewg is a murderer if you, in fact, think Dewg is a murderer, is an expression, and is not defamatory, thus constitutes protected speech.

Defamation is a bit more complex though....

For one, there's no federal law against it at all.

It's regulated entirely at the state level-- and less than half the states in the US has a criminal defamation law on the books at all.

Even in the states that do have criminal laws about it, it's very rare for anyone to be prosecuted, and very very rare for anyone to be convicted... like a few people a decade, nation-wide.

Civil liability is a thing, but with even more complexity-who said it, where, when, about whom, in what context, etc... (in many but not all cases it also matters a great deal if you can prove there was harm incurred as a result, etc...) all pretty far out of scope to get into here.
 
I bolded the 2 parts you left out of the actual quote-- and cited the word you added that is not in the original quote.

Was that not clear enough?
It's not a clarity issue, it's a reading issue. I didn't misquote anything or leave anything out of a quote because I didn't quote anything. I was simply addressing Dewg's post identifying what felt like inconsistencies in application of "free speech" rights by saying that if you look at the natural right as "freedom of expression" instead, it makes it easier to accept how the U.S. Supreme Court and courts of other nations have distinguished certain categories of speech, like incitement to violence, profanity, commercial speech, defamation, etc. as unprotected under the First Amendment. My reference to yelling fire in a theater was just responding to his use of this example of a category of unprotected speech.

But, I will admit I wasn't really paying attention when I responded to your post. I am well aware of your propensity to throw out straw man arguments and then knock them down in order to prove others wrong. Shame on me for responding.
 
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It's not a clarity issue, it's a reading issue. I didn't misquote anything or leave anything out of a quote because I didn't quote anything.

But, I will admit I wasn't really paying attention when I responded to your post. I am well aware of your propensity to throw out straw man arguments and then knock them down in order to prove others wrong. Shame on me for responding.


Here's your quote in fuller context:

"it's a bit easier to accept the Supreme Court jurisprudence here. Yelling fire in a theater is not an expression of one's thoughts or beliefs, but instead is violative of others rights, and thus not protected speech "


The fire quote is from a famous supreme court case and you had JUST cited it after mentioning the supreme courts thoughts on the matter.

And you misquoted it.

The parts you left out are directly relevant to the limitations the court imposed (and also how they were changed by a later ruling I also cited).

Accusing others of strawmen to avoid admitting your error is.... an odd hill to die on but you do you I guess?
 
i mean, he also said FSD would recognize objects in the road (like potholes)..

and well....


Well what? AFAIK he didn't provide a due date on that specific item did he?

It DOES recognize many objects in the road... one most relevant example is speed bumps which it currently gets right most of the time (and increasingly so with version revs). It does not yet do potholes but there's no reason to think it can't or won't in the future.
 
Quote:
@WholeMarsBlog 3h
FSD Beta 10.12 will include a new model for cars in the visualization. The new model for sedans has wheels, unlike the previous floating Tesla key design. Open doors will also be shown in the visualization. Can’t wait.
Looking forward to the open doors visualizations. I hope they can also finally decide whether to show speedbumps or not - they keep coming in and out (currently out in 10.11.2)
 
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