I can’t believe that the owner of Twitter would lie in a tweet...so I believe him
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Elon: FSD Beta tweets
- Thread starter Terminator857
- Start date
I think it comes down to who pays for the lie.
When investors pay for a lie I'm okay with it as that's the ballgame investors play. There are also rules in place designed to protect them. But, FSD is something consumers paid for.
FSD buyers were not trained investors.
FSD was far more expensive than the typical pre-orders for video games that consumers are used to
What I see with FSD, and other "we'll do it in SW" features is the need for consumer protection. Some method of making sure buyers have recourse when a company is unable to deliver a promised feature within a reasonable time frame.
One unique aspect to FSD is I think most buyers knew the totality/timeline was a lie. I certainly knew it was a lie, but even coming up far short of the intended goal was good enough for me.
In mid 2019 (approx) FSD changed to where the language on the order page was weakened to where it no longer clearly promised at least L4 driving. So I think we need to accept that the original autonomous driving promise of FSD was a lie, and the new promise is an advanced L2 driver aid.
I don't think there is any question that Tesla will eventually reach their goals on new vehicles. Tesla isn't going anywhere, and autonomous cars are coming eventually. It's just not going to be existing owners with HW3.
Probably our grandkids with HW20.
I agree that there should be some prorated refund for FSD. The only piece missing from FSD is Autosteer on City Streets. All the other components are active and available to use. So, if someone purchases FSD for $10K, expecting Autosteer on City Streets in a year, and then a year later it doesn't manifest, Tesla should refund a prorated portion of their $10K (if they want to cancel FSD completely).I think it comes down to who pays for the lie.
When investors pay for a lie I'm okay with it as that's the ballgame investors play. There are also rules in place designed to protect them. But, FSD is something consumers paid for.
FSD buyers were not trained investors.
FSD was far more expensive than the typical pre-orders for video games that consumers are used to
What I see with FSD, and other "we'll do it in SW" features is the need for consumer protection. Some method of making sure buyers have recourse when a company is unable to deliver a promised feature within a reasonable time frame.
One unique aspect to FSD is I think most buyers knew the totality/timeline was a lie. I certainly knew it was a lie, but even coming up far short of the intended goal was good enough for me.
In mid 2019 (approx) FSD changed to where the language on the order page was weakened to where it no longer clearly promised at least L4 driving. So I think we need to accept that the original autonomous driving promise of FSD was a lie, and the new promise is an advanced L2 driver aid.
I don't think there is any question that Tesla will eventually reach their goals on new vehicles. Tesla isn't going anywhere, and autonomous cars are coming eventually. It's just not going to be existing owners with HW3.
Probably our grandkids with HW20.
If someone purchases FSD for $10K, and then experiences terrible phantom braking immediately after purchase, then they should be able to get a full refund of their FSD purchase. Otherwise, a prorated refund is appropriate.
While a Robotaxis or an electronic chauffeur would be great...all I look for in FSD is a driving aid, a safer more comfortable way to travel...and I appreciate that it’s an evolving technology and I also appreciate that I will be part of this evolution without having to buy a new car
There should be a 30 day full refund guarantee for this situation if you purchase, and even a prorated refund option for subscription. A lot of people here would probably say, just pay $200 to test it out, but that's a lot of money to just "test it out".
I think right now they give 48 hours, but who's going to get enough of a feel for it in that much time to make a real decision. I think the 48 hours was built in for people who "butt-ordered" the features through the mobile app.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
For perspective, FSD was about 5% of the price of my Tesla vehicle.
A new pre-order PS5 game is roughly 12-15% of the price of a PS5.
Since 2018, on a model 3, FSD has been ~20% of the price...so your point?
EVNow
Well-Known Member
How much time I spend here is none of your business.
Stop the stupid personal attacks.
Reported.
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Uh, no it hasn't.
Why lie about things so easily checked?
FSD was $3000 on my $60,000 Model 3 in 2018.
That's 5%.
It didn't reach 20% of a new 60k car until 2022
EVNow
Well-Known Member
I paid $50k for my Model 3. Paid a discounted price of $1.5k for FSD in 2019 - normally $3k. So, 3% discounted, 6% normal.
It is more now because they combined EAP and FSD - of which they recognize about 60%. So, undelivered FSD price is still < 10% of new car prices.
My apologies if it came across as personal attack.
It was meant as joke. I didn't think you'd be offended by a joke about how much time you spend on here. I figured it was something inbounds to joke about especially as I myself have questioned the amount of time I spent on forums not being particularly productive. You have more justification as Tesla is a major investment for you.
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Percentage of X is a rather weird way to gauge the damage of a lie.
Does the damage mean less because we're both P3D owners versus the poor slum that got the LR version or the mythical $35K one?
Either way we invested in this thing called FSD that is no longer what we thought it was going to be.
My own damage is low, and I feel more anger about EAP never living up to its potential. Neither of those things compare to my annoyance at bugs. That annoyance pales in comparison to my annoyance at hyper inflation
For me its less about damage, and more about the story.
Where does this story go? How does this story play out.
It was most definitely a lie, but it was still a ticket to an adventure. So it's not like I didn't get anything for it.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
What lie?
I preordered a product. I've gotten some stuff from it already, and still expect the rest later.
And the % of price was in reference to your statement of "FSD was far more expensive than the typical pre-orders for video games that consumers are used to"
As a % of the total $ spent, as I pointed out, it was far less expensive than such pre-orders.
If you don't like how your metaphor works when math is applied to it, that's kinda on you
I feel like we've had this discussion a time or 12,000 already--- but since the finished/final product is not yet delivered, you have no idea what it is going to be nor how it compares to what you thought it would be other than in terms of timeframe
I was comparing FSD to video games because video games are notorious for failing to release on time, and overpromising on features.
The price of video games is fairly low so its under the average gamers disposable income.
Obviously FSD is way above this threshold and is a significant percentage of an average buyers income.
We've discussed it enough to understand what position we both hold.
We both believe L4 was what was originally promised
We both believe there was a distinct cut off date of the original promise in mid 2019
We both believe HW3 cannot achieve L4
We both believe that a HW upgrade will require additional sensors.
You have faith that Tesla will upgrade your car for free to HW4 or whatever it takes to accomplish L4.
I have zero faith that Tesla will upgrade my car for free to HW4. That it will simply be too complicated, and too expensive to be practical.
I believe Tesla will conclude FSD with HW3 vehicles as an L2 system. This is where the cut-off date of the original promise comes into play. It's not that there are two camps, but that the >Mid-2019 is what the new promise is for us ALL.
Sure I agree that the fat lady hasn't sung yet, but the writing is on the wall.
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Guaranteed and affirmed by who? Surely Putin or Xi would disagree. I’d argue free speech is not a natural human right, but rather a construct of government. Clearly man’s instinct is to subjugate all things.
Or banning you from using my platform to spout your nonsense…. Just go on the Joe Rogan show and get the Truth Social out there….
Banning someone from using your stage for a speech is a form of speech itself. Who are you to decide whose free speech is more valid. The guy kicked off my stage is free to find another stage elsewhere.
It seems to me people claiming to have their free speech taken away have arbitrarily chosen to start the free speech debate with their own speech.
Well yes, a good one and that's the internet/TV-age conclusion you'd come to. But the moral/legal principal in question is ancient of course.
I'm pretty sure that with some study you could go back to biblical, Greek and Roman, Chinese and Vedic philosophies.
The best I could do on short notice is from Augustine in the fourth century, translation from the Latin:
...For which purpose we must see what a lie is. For not every one who says a false thing lies, if he believes or opines that to be true which he says...
Augustine promised a chariot that would drive itself across the empire to you by the end of the year. The horses would even find their own grass to eat along the way...
As I noted in my message, this is a very fundamental concept as proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence. It lies at the core of Western and particularly the American concept of rightful governance.
To dispute the principle based on evidence of its historically routine violations, seems to me to be a perversion of logic and a basic refusal even to acknowledge the ideas and ethically essential nature of rights. In the context of the decades-old degradation of government and civics teaching in our society, it's not surprising but it's still disturbing. This is well-trodden ground and very important.
I'll stop here because people (somewhat understandably) don't like this 'off-topic" stuff in Tesla threads.
Yes that's a great and relevant connection!
I quoted him but I don't actually adhere to those teachings. But since I did tithe for FSD, maybe I should look to him for comfort.
In my religious school, we were taught the Maimonedes principles of faith, among them patiently to await the Messiah, and this can be paraphrased:
I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the [FSD], and though he may tarry, still I await him every day.
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