Elon: FSD Beta tweets

[Jigglypuff]

Why to do you say it's garbage? I use it all the time on highway driving and it does very well. in rush hour-type traffic it's especially nice. It is not at all aggressive, so if your goal is to make sure no one cuts in front of you when traffic starts to move then you'll be disappointed, otherwise it's performed close to flawlessly for me. I routinely use it on interstates going 60-65 MPH and it never has an issue staying in the lane or adjusting speed (with the notable exception of phantom braking, but I consider that to be TACC, something used by but separate from AP)

Autopilot is technically only meant/approved for use on controlled access highways, not country roads but before enrolling in the FSDb program I used it a lot on those and it still did fairly well.


If it's turned off, that's not autopilot.

I consider autopilot to be all the tesla self-driving tech that's controlled by the same computer. From emergency braking to FSD, it all passes through the same chip and a lot of the same software. It's garbage because it works plain badly, except for spotting cones. It doesn't center well in the lane. It doesn't respond well to user inputs. The acceleration and braking in traffic are jerky unless you do a huge following distance, which means people constantly cutting and thinking I'm an asshole. It doesn't recognize most of what's going on around the car, which is obvious with the visualizations that are downright paleolithic compared to what the competition does. It doesn't notice the cars ahead of the car in front of me, and so when I would lift for a car braking 3-5 cars ahead, autopilot has no clue this is happening and just waits for the car in front of me to slow. Oh, and the phantom braking and steering correction? Puhleeeze!

Ouch - something is very off on your car.

Few things might help:
1) Having the firmware re-flashed to your car. A service appointment can have them force the software back onto your car.
2) Factory wipe and reset - like above only a full reset of the car and then loading the latest firmware
3) Re-calibrating the cameras - this is essential as your car can't even stay in the center of the lane. If a recalibrate doesn't solve it, you'll need to have a service appointment to run diags on your car. Could be one of the cameras is out of allignment.
4) Check your settings. There is a setting for lane departure warnings - make sure that's turned off if you don't want it "correcting" you when you drift, or change lanes without signalling.

Hopefully these suggestions help.

I get software updates regularly. No errors on firmware updates. No improvement on performance either. The UI has gotten better in some ways and worse in others. I finally splurged on sexy buttons, which I much appreciate, though they're hacky.
I could go through all that, but the car behaves as every other autopilot car I've used, so I'm not sure if it's worthwhile. Seems like a lot of hassle for nothing.

totally disagree. had a drive today where my autopilot could not activate as the front of my car was covered in bugs (big time!), so radar did not work.

Boy did I miss autopilot on that drive. I would never buy another car without it. never. and that is in its hobbled UK state!

I do get a lot of bugs on the front of the car, but with or without them, performance is equally bad. Sometimes I get a "camera is blocked" message, but I've never used AP in those situations.

While I often complain about FSD calling it garbage seems a bit extreme. Today I did a 75 mile highway drive (greater Boston) and my only complaint was it tried to merge onto the highway at too high a speed since it was rush hour and traffic was slow. Otherwise I much prefer it over driving manually. I suspect something is wrong with your car.

I'd say I have an issue with half the decisions AP makes. The visualizations are a laugh. Look at that shimmying, sliding truck!

 

[aronth5]

I'd say I have an issue with half the decisions AP makes. The visualizations are a laugh. Look at that shimmying, sliding truck!

It's important to remember that FSD/NoA won't drive like you do and if you expect that you will be disappointed. Everyone disagrees with some decisions but by stating 50% you lose some credibility.

 

[Jigglypuff]

It's important to remember that FSD/NoA won't drive like you do and if you expect that you will be disappointed. Everyone disagrees with some decisions but by stating 50% you lose some credibility.

75%? Did my percentage offend thee? The issue isn't that it doesn't drive like me. The issue is that it drives badly.

 

[momo3605]

75%? Did my percentage offend thee? The issue isn't that it doesn't drive like me. The issue is that it drives badly.

If you’re talking about FSD Beta maybe I’d agree that it drives pretty badly. But highway autopilot is just fine imo. It’s not perfect, but for the most part I’m very comfortable with it on and doing it’s thing.

 

[sleepydoc]

I consider autopilot to be all the tesla self-driving tech that's controlled by the same computer.

Saying ‘they’re all controlled by the same computer” is a rather simple minded take on it. It’s like saying all websites are awful because they’re all loaded by the same browser.

There are multiple different systems being used with varying degrees of overlap. TACC, EAB (emergency automatic braking), Lane Assist and FSDb. Currently FSDb runs independently from AP/Lane Assist.

If you’re using ‘Autopilot’ To refer to the lane assist that comes standard on all Teslas then it is designed to be used solely on limited access highways like interstates. You can engage it on any road that has lines but the performance will be unreliable.

On highways I’ve never had an issue with AP and found it to be near flawless. The only time it has a ‘problem’ with lanes is when the lane starts to widen from an entrance or exit ramp and it moves over a bit trying to stay centered until it realizes there’s a separate lane. If your car won’t stay in the lane you should try recalibrating the cameras or open a service ticket.

As far as TACC goes, I make no excuses for phantom braking - I’ve said many times that it’s among the worst adaptive cruise systems on the market. Having said that, phantom braking has improved with recent releases and it otherwise performs just fine and even with PB I still find it preferable to the dumb cruise on our 2011 odyssey. I’ve used both TACC and AP in heavy highway traffic quite often and they’ve both been excellent. (Strangely, phantom braking doesn’t seem to be an issue in these situations.) if your goal is to be aggressive and stay right on the tail of the car in front of you so no one can cut in then you’ll be disappointed, but that’s an issue of driving style and not a defect.

What user inputs are you expecting it to respond to? Pretty much the only inputs are speed adjustments and lane changes. For lane changes, you need to push the turn stalk all the way down so it stays on, like you would when making a turn. If you only push it half way you need to hold it there until it completes the lane change.

 

[Jigglypuff]

Saying ‘they’re all controlled by the same computer” is a rather simple minded take on it. It’s like saying all websites are awful because they’re all loaded by the same browser.

There are multiple different systems being used with varying degrees of overlap. TACC, EAB (emergency automatic braking), Lane Assist and FSDb. Currently FSDb runs independently from AP/Lane Assist.

If you’re using ‘Autopilot’ To refer to the lane assist that comes standard on all Teslas then it is designed to be used solely on limited access highways like interstates. You can engage it on any road that has lines but the performance will be unreliable.

On highways I’ve never had an issue with AP and found it to be near flawless. The only time it has a ‘problem’ with lanes is when the lane starts to widen from an entrance or exit ramp and it moves over a bit trying to stay centered until it realizes there’s a separate lane. If your car won’t stay in the lane you should try recalibrating the cameras or open a service ticket.

As far as TACC goes, I make no excuses for phantom braking - I’ve said many times that it’s among the worst adaptive cruise systems on the market. Having said that, phantom braking has improved with recent releases and it otherwise performs just fine and even with PB I still find it preferable to the dumb cruise on our 2011 odyssey. I’ve used both TACC and AP in heavy highway traffic quite often and they’ve both been excellent. (Strangely, phantom braking doesn’t seem to be an issue in these situations.) if your goal is to be aggressive and stay right on the tail of the car in front of you so no one can cut in then you’ll be disappointed, but that’s an issue of driving style and not a defect.

What user inputs are you expecting it to respond to? Pretty much the only inputs are speed adjustments and lane changes. For lane changes, you need to push the turn stalk all the way down so it stays on, like you would when making a turn. If you only push it half way you need to hold it there until it completes the lane change.

Tesla has a bunch of software components that are, I would expect, more or less the same code. Then they sell you features, but the core vision software and such doesn't change.

I expect my L2 software to allow me to adjust the car where I want in a lane, at least for a moment, without turning off completely and suddenly. I expect my L2 software to hand off tasks to me smoothly, without the car jerking or suddenly accelerating or decelerating. I expect my L2 software to actually be able to sense when my hands are on the wheel.

The best parts of Teslas are the batteries and motors. The worst part of Teslas are the suspension. The second worst is the software that users interact with.

 

[sleepydoc]

Tesla has a bunch of software components that are, I would expect, more or less the same code. Then they sell you features, but the core vision software and such doesn't change.

I wouldn't be so sure

I expect my L2 software to allow me to adjust the car where I want in a lane, at least for a moment, without turning off completely and suddenly. I expect my L2 software to hand off tasks to me smoothly, without the car jerking or suddenly accelerating or decelerating. I expect my L2 software to actually be able to sense when my hands are on the wheel.

Why do you want/need to adjust where you are in the lane when you're driving down the highway? What you're saying is you want AP to drive on it's own, then seamlessly let you take over then take control back from you whenever you feel like it without any input. Not going go happen, not with any system. If you're using AP you can either move the steering wheel or tap the right stalk upwards. Moving the steering wheel will cause slight twitch to the side. This is better than it used to be but still noticeable. Reducing this automatically means less required force to take over which would mean more accidental disengagements. There's no way around that. If you want to completely disengage, simply tap the right stalk upwards. You need to take over the accelerator at this point, or tap the stalk downwards again to re-engage TACC but I've never found the change in speed to be significant or had an issue maintaining speed. (I've rapidly tapped the stalk up then down on occasion and that works perfectly fine.)

As far as hand sensing goes, Tesla looks at the driver's seat belt buckle, weight in the driver's seat, torque on the steering wheel and driver attention/gaze via the cabin camera. The only other two options I can think of would be a capacitive sensor on the wheel or a weight sensor on the steering wheel. The capacitive sensor has issues, among them the fact that it wouldn't with gloves. I'm guessing that Tesla went with the torque sensor because it made use of the sensors already in place. (remember, these sensor requirements were all added along the way in response to people being irresponsible with the system.

Seriously, these are not big issues, I'm having a hard time understanding why you're having such a hard time with them.

 

[jakimo]

Moving the steering wheel will cause slight twitch to the side.

I've noticed with the latest FSD beta software update, if one is on a straight drive (ie. highway) and uses the blinker first, disengagement is MUCH easier for switching lanes (I've been off FSD subscription, so my lane changes are manual)

Works MUCH better, the blinker seems to be the trigger. Just right..

 

[aronth5]

Tesla has a bunch of software components that are, I would expect, more or less the same code. Then they sell you features, but the core vision software and such doesn't change.

I expect my L2 software to allow me to adjust the car where I want in a lane, at least for a moment, without turning off completely and suddenly. I expect my L2 software to hand off tasks to me smoothly, without the car jerking or suddenly accelerating or decelerating. I expect my L2 software to actually be able to sense when my hands are on the wheel.

The best parts of Teslas are the batteries and motors. The worst part of Teslas are the suspension. The second worst is the software that users interact with.

75%? Did my percentage offend thee? The issue isn't that it doesn't drive like me. The issue is that it drives badly.

Why would your percentage offend me, seems like an odd thing to say?
I'm assuming your comments above are referring to city/street FSD driving since I don't see why you would want to adjust where the car is in the lane. An example would be helpful.

 

[momo3605]

Why would your percentage offend me, seems like an odd thing to say?
I'm assuming your comments above are referring to city/street FSD driving since I don't see why you would want to adjust where the car is in the lane. An example would be helpful.

Potholes maybe?

 

[Supcom]

I expect my L2 software to actually be able to sense when my hands are on the wheel.

If you want some sort of hand contact sensor, then you bought the wrong car. Your steering wheel doesn't have the hardware required.

Maybe it would be better to expect the car to sense when you are paying attention without requiring your hands to be touching the steering wheel. That's something that is feasible with the current car through the cabin camera.

 

[Jigglypuff]

I wouldn't be so sure

Why do you want/need to adjust where you are in the lane when you're driving down the highway? What you're saying is you want AP to drive on it's own, then seamlessly let you take over then take control back from you whenever you feel like it without any input. Not going go happen, not with any system. If you're using AP you can either move the steering wheel or tap the right stalk upwards. Moving the steering wheel will cause slight twitch to the side. This is better than it used to be but still noticeable. Reducing this automatically means less required force to take over which would mean more accidental disengagements. There's no way around that. If you want to completely disengage, simply tap the right stalk upwards. You need to take over the accelerator at this point, or tap the stalk downwards again to re-engage TACC but I've never found the change in speed to be significant or had an issue maintaining speed. (I've rapidly tapped the stalk up then down on occasion and that works perfectly fine.)

As far as hand sensing goes, Tesla looks at the driver's seat belt buckle, weight in the driver's seat, torque on the steering wheel and driver attention/gaze via the cabin camera. The only other two options I can think of would be a capacitive sensor on the wheel or a weight sensor on the steering wheel. The capacitive sensor has issues, among them the fact that it wouldn't with gloves. I'm guessing that Tesla went with the torque sensor because it made use of the sensors already in place. (remember, these sensor requirements were all added along the way in response to people being irresponsible with the system.

Seriously, these are not big issues, I'm having a hard time understanding why you're having such a hard time with them.

Why would your percentage offend me, seems like an odd thing to say?
I'm assuming your comments above are referring to city/street FSD driving since I don't see why you would want to adjust where the car is in the lane. An example would be helpful.

I do sensible things like avoiding potholes and moving away from large trucks or even cars in the lane right next to me. There are also large sections of freeway where certain areas of the lane are in worse condition than others, and a well-placed car has a much smoother ride. I do my best to always position my car so that I'm never next to another car for long. I can see an aggressive driver coming and make room for them. I hear motorcycles coming when lane splitting, or see them in the rearview, and move over to make space. This has all helped me avoid many an accident and gotten many a pleasant handwave too. FSD and AP cannot deal with any of this. When then are they going to be able to deal with the Road to Hana?

 

[Yelobird]

I do sensible things like avoiding potholes and moving away from large trucks or even cars in the lane right next to me. There are also large sections of freeway where certain areas of the lane are in worse condition than others, and a well-placed car has a much smoother ride. I do my best to always position my car so that I'm never next to another car for long. I can see an aggressive driver coming and make room for them. I hear motorcycles coming when lane splitting, or see them in the rearview, and move over to make space. This has all helped me avoid many an accident and gotten many a pleasant handwave too. FSD and AP cannot deal with any of this. When then are they going to be able to deal with the Road to Hana?

If your waiting for the car to mind read other drivers and wave “good job buddy” you likely bought the wrong car. If you want it to drive like you they provide a steering wheel and peddles to accomplish your expectation.

 

[dgatwood]

We already know the answer to that. Just look at the response to Covid vaccines. The risks and benefits were quite clear and the statistics overwhelmingly favored them but we had people filing lawsuits to get out of getting one.

The general public is horribly irrational and sucks at statistics.

Just tell everybody that the evil liberals are planning to shut down the vaccine program so that Republicans can't get vaccinated, and that anybody who doesn't get vaccinated before August will never be able to get the vaccine, so no matter how much worse future strains might get, they're on their own. Then watch the lines at vaccination clinics go around the block by week's end. People want what they think they can't have, particularly if other people have it.

And similarly, people don't want others to have what they can't have. This likely explains why so many people who have never owned or driven a Tesla are so certain that autopilot is dangerous and needs to be banned....

 

[Doggydogworld]

I'm not convinced that L3 systems will have a problem of collisions at handover. If you don't respond to the request to take over the car will simply stop.

And stopping in stop-and-go traffic shouldn't be dangerous, by definition. Stopping in your lane on an open freeway would be a different story, but the new 130 kph reg has lane changes. So cars will pull over to the shoulder and stop.

Anyway, it sounds like we'll know soon enough if Mercedes releases their system.

The released it in May. I don't know people who ordered cars with it then actually have their cars yet. Wait times are long everywhere.

Yeah, I don't see L3 going past traffic jam scenarios.

The new reg I linked above takes effect in January. I don't know how long it will take for OEMs to get cars approved.

I think its best to view L3 as a special case. I don't see it being practical for anything other that traffic assist because humans do fall asleep quiet easily. Can you imagine a car saying "are you awake" over and over? or gently nudging you like hundreds of thousands of spouses do every night while watching a movie with someone?

The car doesn't nudge unless you actually fall asleep. If you're too tired to stay awake it's time to pull over, whether L0, L1, L2 or L3.

So the transition is from L2 to L4.

That's what Waymo decided a decade ago, but that's not what's happening in the market.

Tesla's plan as I understand it is to do so well with L2 that they can get approval to do L4.

Tesla's plan is to keep adding "features" and cashing those $12,000 checks. It's the perfect business model. Why would they accept liability for anything?

 

[Daniel in SD]

And stopping in stop-and-go traffic shouldn't be dangerous, by definition. Stopping in your lane on an open freeway would be a different story, but the new 130 kph reg has lane changes. So cars will pull over to the shoulder and stop.

I agree, full speed systems need to be able to pull over to a shoulder (even though it's not strictly required in the definition of L3).

The released it in May. I don't know people who ordered cars with it then actually have their cars yet. Wait times are long everywhere.

What I mean is we won't know if it's actually safe until we get a few hundred million miles of data. Does Mercedes even sell enough S-class and EQS vehicles to get that many traffic jam miles?

Tesla's plan is to keep adding "features" and cashing those $12,000 checks. It's the perfect business model. Why would they accept liability for anything?

Can't have an L2 robotaxi.
Seriously though if a manufacturer releases an 80mph L3 system a lot of people are going to find that more valuable than FSD Beta. I don't think "approval" is what's holding that up though.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Tesla's plan is to keep adding "features" and cashing those $12,000 checks. It's the perfect business model. Why would they accept liability for anything?

It's not sustainable.

They're already accepting checks of $6K for the highway bits.

Thanks for the information on L3 expanding in terms of speed, and capability. I look forwards to seeing how it pans out in Germany. If MB will extend their system. Having the regulatory element in place certainly sets the stage for someone to try it.

 

[2101Guy]

Elon agrees that Tesla has two of the top three most unreliable EV’s on Earth.

The 3 Least Reliable 2022 Electric SUVs According to Consumer Reports

Here are 3 of the least reliable SUVs for 2022 when it comes to EVs according to Consumer Reports. Some of these may surprise you.

www.motorbiscuit.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1001954916569579520

 

[2101Guy]

V23 will be great, I swear.

Will be “fire”

 

[sleepydoc]

I do sensible things like avoiding potholes

I know of no system that's able to avoid potholes. Half the humans I know can't do it - if you're on a pothole-ridden street and have to snake your way though the maze to find the least-damaging path you should disable FSD.

and moving away from large trucks or even cars in the lane right next to me.

You're afraid of driving next to a car? Best let FSD do the driving then. Otherwise your best bet is to speed up/slow down to get in front of or behind.

There are also large sections of freeway where certain areas of the lane are in worse condition than others, and a well-placed car has a much smoother ride.

Ah, I see. I'm far from an expert but I know of no lane-keeping software that lets you pick the left side vs the right side of the lane, Tesla or otherwise. Maybe some do but this is another case where you're better off switching to TACC.

I do my best to always position my car so that I'm never next to another car for long. I can see an aggressive driver coming and make room for them. I hear motorcycles coming when lane splitting, or see them in the rearview, and move over to make space. This has all helped me avoid many an accident and gotten many a pleasant handwave too. FSD and AP cannot deal with any of this. When then are they going to be able to deal with the Road to Hana?

Like @Yelobird said, you're expecting an automated system to interpret people's intentions and nuances, that's just not going to happen in the near future. You can easily use the scroll wheel or accelerator to temporarily speed up or slow down so you're not in someone's blind spot, though.