-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Elon: FSD Beta tweets
- Thread starter Terminator857
- Start date
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
I agree that manufacturers will not do remote assistance or remote operators for personal cars. This will affect how autonomous personal cars are developed.
You need to ask yourself two questions: what is the L4 ODD and does the application require the car to leave its ODD. If the L4 car never needs to leave its ODD in order to fulfill its purpose, then it does not need a steering wheel or pedals. If the application does require the car to sometimes leave the L4 ODD, then the L4 car does need a steering wheel and pedals.
That is why I think autonomous personal cars will probably come in 3 types:
1) L5 with no steering wheel or pedals
This would work since L5 could go anywhere the driver would need to go. So there would be no need for the driver to take over, hence no need for steering wheel or pedals. But, I personally don't see L5 happening any time soon.
2) L4 with steering wheel and pedals
This would work since the owner could let the L4 drive when inside the ODD and the owner could take over when they needed to go outside the ODD or want to drive manually. I think this is the most likely type of personal AV we will see in the near future because automakers can simply build cars with steering wheel and pedals like they are doing now but equip them with L4 to drive in certain conditions. This would be the best of both worlds, L4 and manual driving depending on the situation. Automakers could even have a retractable steering wheel to give the owner a bit more space when in L4 mode. For example, I could envision L4 highway where the owner drives the car on city streets but once on the highway, they enable L4, the steering wheel retracts, and the owner can disengage mentally while the L4 drives. As they approach the off ramp, the steering wheel would come out again, and the L4 would signal to the driver to take over.
3) L4 with no steering wheel or pedal but only if the ODD were big enough.
Obviously, with no steering wheel or pedals, the car would be completely restricted to the ODD. The owner would never be able to take over to go outside the ODD. So the ODD would need to cover the owner's driving needs since owners would not accept a car that prevents them from going where they need to go. So it would only work if the ODD were big enough. So this type of personal AV will likely not happen until L4 is wide enough.
It should be noted that people don't actually drive everywhere. So it could be argued that people don't need L5, L4 with a big enough ODD would be good enough for most people. The question is how big does the ODD need to be in order for people to buy a L4 car with no controls. I think if the L4 covered say 99.999% of the owner's driving needs, that would probably be good enough. For example, I could maybe see dealerships in CA selling L4 cars with no controls that are geofenced to CA. People who live in CA and do all their driving in CA might be ok with a L4 car geofenced to CA.
The real challenge to a fully autonomous vehicle is not predicting which lane to be in for a turn or when you can turn left at an UPL, it will be accurately predicting what the idiot alongside you will do next.
Silicon Desert
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, this reminds me of a situation I had several months ago. Agreeing with you.
Down in the bay area I was coming home on I80 in AP. Suddenly the car moved from the center lane to the next left lane. I mean REALLY aggressively and suddenly. I was surprised it did something so suddenly before I could even respond even though my hand was on the wheel. Caught me off guard. What a stupid dangerous thing it did. I clicked to save the clip to report it to Tesla.
BUT THEN, I got home and reviewed the video as I was about to report it. That's when I say it had perfectly avoided a side-swipe from a woman coming from an on-ramp onto the freeway and was coming from the right lane into my center lane while texting on her damn phone. I realized the car save me from a potential right quarter panel hit.
So I guess this is to your point. While AP currently does some strange things that it should not be doing, it also has saved me from a couple serious issues.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Back on topic, Elon says 10.13 will bring improvements to FSD Beta outside of CA. Hopefully, good news for the rest of us who live outside CA.
Doggydogworld
Active Member
I don't know who made your graphic, but here is one straight from the SAE itself. As I said, L4 may or may not have steering wheel/pedals. As I later said, L5 is the same as L4 except it can operate in all conditions. During operation neither L4 nor L5 will require a human to take over. The SAE graphic says nothing about manual override, but that can be designed into both L4- and L5-capable vehicles if desired.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
The graphic and quotes that @JulienW used appear to come from this website:
The 6 Levels of Vehicle Autonomy Explained | Synopsys Automotive
Before merging onto roadways, self-driving cars will have to progress through 6 levels of driver assistance technology advancements. SAE defines 6 levels of driving automation ranging from 0 (fully manual) to 5 (fully autonomous). Learn more.
www.synopsys.com
As you and I have pointed out, it definitely has some errors in it.
It doesn't say geofencing is a L4 requirement. Just that companies are now using geofencing. Here is supposedly a clear summarization. It does say that remote driving would make it L3. So I was wrong about that. However it says Remote Assistance is part of L4 with is still a form of takeover and external control. Still a little muddy but seems geofencing is an option but not a requirement for and Remote Assistance may be a requirement if you don't have a steering wheel in L4. If it's not and you get stuck what do you do in you personal L4 car without controls? Call a tow truck for a relatively easy human maneuver? There HAS to be some way to control the car if in L4.
In the SAE press release related to Levels 4 and 5, there was mention of ‘remote assistance’ and ‘remote driving,’ which seem to be a bit over the horizon from where industry developments are now. What are these terms?
That was one of the more important changes we made in this version, and it was one of the thorniest issues that we tackled with the ISO-SAE group. It was particularly important for companies working on ADS-dedicated vehicles operating in geofenced urban areas to distinguish between remote driving and remote assistance. Consider the need for an ADS-dedicated vehicle to, for example, pass a double-parked vehicle that is blocking its lane, where passing it requires crossing a double-yellow line to enter a lane of opposing traffic: the vehicle would signal a person in the fleet operations center of its predicament and that person will either remotely drive the vehicle using, for example, the vehicle’s cameras and a joy-stick apparatus wirelessly linked to the vehicle’s steering and braking controls to accomplish the passing maneuver. Or, remotely assist the vehicle by sending it instructions to accomplish the passing maneuver in its own. The first example constitutes remote-driving and means that the ADS-dedicated vehicle in question is Level 3, while the second example constitutes remote assistance and means that the ADS-dedicated vehicle in question is Level 4.
Last edited:
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
As long as your L4 is in development and may encounter a problem, yes you need a way to control or help the L4 car when it gets stuck. You can either keep a steering wheel and pedals so that the safety driver can take over or you can go driverless but use some form of remote assistance to guide the L4. Eventually, L4 will be good enough that we can confidently remove the steering wheel and pedals and all remote assistance. But we are not there yet.
Still not clear. If it is L4 then it may run into a situation that it can't navigate no matter how advanced L4 is. If the car can handle any situation then it is an L5 and problem solved. So if your car is L4 with no controls and it gets "stuck" what do you do? Seems outrageous that you might have to call a tow truck for an edge case maneuver you could figure out/accomplish in seconds because there are no controls or remote assistance for your L4 car.
KArnold
Active Member
Or perhaps, if personally-owned vehicles still exist (which seems likely at least for many years post a wide-spread, successful, deployment), maybe a secure BT or even an app on your phone to manually assist as the owner via the 'net? Perhaps LE would demand their own "back door" if the owner is not responding?
Lots of possibilities and opportunities.
You’re still not getting it. An L4 robotaxi may drive perfectly but be limited to a city like San Francisco. If it drives perfectly without issues, but has geofenced borders, that’s L4. It wouldn’t need steering wheel or controls. It can’t get itself into a situation that needs override.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
A geofence does not include all driving cases. So it is possible for the AV to handle all the cases inside the geofence well enough but not be able to handle cases outside the geofence. If the AV can handle all cases inside the geofence reliably enough, then you can deploy it as L4 without a safety driver and perhaps even without remote assistance. That's the benefit of geofencing: you can carefully select an area that only includes the cases that you know your AV can handle well.
That is what we see happening with robotaxis like Waymo. The Waymo Driver probably cannot handle all cases in the US well enough yet. But Waymo knows that it can reliably handle driving in the Phoenix and SF geofence areas. So Waymo can deploy driverless in those geofenced areas now, before they have solved all cases. That is the nice thing about L4: you can start deploying your AV in the areas where you know it works reliably without waiting for it to work everywhere perfectly.
Hope that makes sense.
You can only deploy L4 with no controls and no remote assistance, if you are absolutely sure it is safe enough and will never get stuck or is able to always get unstuck safely on its own. It's a very very high bar. That's why our L4 robotaxis still have safety drivers or remote assistance when driverless.
That's also why true L5 is so far away IMO. L5, with no steering wheel or pedals and no remote assistance, would need to be able to drive everywhere in say the US safely and never get stuck or always be able to get unstuck on its own. That's an incredibly high bar. And it's why, I think, AV companies are taking the geofence approach. It is much easier to make sure your AV is safe enough and will rarely gets stuck in a 50 sq mi area than in the entire US!
Last edited:
Not talking about robotaxies or geofenced. Those are NOT requirements for L4. They are examples of L4 uses. I'm referring to your personally owned L4 vehicle that you drive wherever you drive now, like your next Tesla after "the end of the year"
. I suspect they will all have controls and the controls will only be removed when we get true L5 personal cars. The thought of NOT being able to take control will probably make it hard to sell a personal L4 vehicle without controls for a LOOOONG time anyway.Will say KArnold's suggestion that Apps could have an "assistance" feature seems the most plausible to solving an L4 personal vehicle with controls removed.
EDIT: Will add that the SAE specs are likely to evolve and be updated as we move along as they have a few times (4 I think) already.
Last edited:
Not talking about robotaxies or geofenced. Those are NOT requirements for L4. They are examples of L4 uses. I'm referring to your personally owned L4 vehicle that you drive wherever you drive now, like your next Tesla after "the end of the year"
Will say KArnold's suggestion that Apps could have an "assistance" feature seems the most plausible to solving an L4 personal vehicle with controls removed.
EDIT: Will add that the SAE specs are likely to evolve and be updated as we move along as they have a few times (4 I think) already.
You’re trying to change your argument. This whole thing started because you have been trying to incorrectly explain L4 vs L5 in terms of whether they need pedals or not. See your quote below. This is wrong because a geofenced AV would be L4 and does not need steering or pedals.
I meant "just basically [allows] human takeover"
It is not an argument and it is a simple quoin I asked and there seems to be no answer for at this time. It has nothing to do with geofenced roboxaxies. Here is the question:
If manufactures offer L4 vehicles for sale without controls and you encounter "Conditions" and L4 will not operate, what do you do?
"These features (L4) can drive the vehicle under limited conditions and will not operate unless all required conditions are met"
Did watch a video and mentioned L4 long hall trucks. They are limited (condition) to highway driving. So that is good example of a L4 that is not geofenced. Makes me wonder if our Tesla could be dual levels. For instance after single stack could highway be rated at L3 and L2 city. Then highway move to L4 and city to L3.
Similar threads
