Elon Musk deletes twitter posts about P85D/85D efficiency increases

[Krugerrand]

Please reread the quote from me that Zythryn quoted.

Yep, reread it several times. Still not seeing 'positive spin on _deleting_ tweets'. Seeing someone who's content to wait and see how it all plays out before coming to a conclusion, good or bad.

Had Tesla actually informed the initial owners here that they had limited range and speed _before_ delivery we would have been in a completely different situation. Now all things points to playing catch up and still not being complete honest about what owners can really expect. All info from atesla here has come after they have been caught underdelivering.

I've heard/read this a number of times before about other 'stuff'. The funny thing is even when Tesla gets it right there's always people who find fault. Don't take that as me trying to put a positive spin on the situation, or excusing Tesla any wrongdoings, that's just me stating an interesting fact of what happens in real life.

 

[darthy001]

Yep, reread it several times. Still not seeing 'positive spin on _deleting_ tweets'. Seeing someone who's content to wait and see how it all plays out before coming to a conclusion, good or bad.



I've heard/read this a number of times before about other 'stuff'. The funny thing is even when Tesla gets it right there's always people who find fault. Don't take that as me trying to put a positive spin on the situation, or excusing Tesla any wrongdoings, that's just me stating an interesting fact of what happens in real life.

Meant my quote not Zyphryns own post. I was far from "jumping to the worst possible conclucions" in that post.

I believe comparing deleting of tweets here to cancelling an announced sale to be a positive spin. If you dont, then we simply disagree on that point.

Your last point about someone akways finding fault is correct, and I have numerous times defended Tesla in such cases myself. But that simply isnt even close to being an excuse here in my mind. Tesla knew they had limited the top speed and missing normal-mode/promised range, and intentionally neglected to inform customers about it in front of deliveries. Then Elon commented on this and deleted his comment soon after. That makes me worried.

 

[403portside]

I think being forced to address the range issue by your customers (rather than being up front about it) and then deleting that very 'forced' communication (ie tweet) is a terrible sign. And I'm frankly shocked.

For those of you that don't use Twitter actively, deleting a tweet usually happens when a public figure makes an embarrassing mistake or says something damaging to themselves or their company, etc. Its the equivalent of publicly saying you were wrong about what you said earlier, because the press will surely pick up on it and write about it that way.

FWIW, I tweeted Elon and Ricardo earlier in the day and asked them to publicly explain the reason why the claimed to exceed the p85 range and now are trying to just get near it. Wonder if that prompted the deletion

 

[Krugerrand]

I believe comparing deleting of tweets here to cancelling an announced sale to be a positive spin. If you dont, then we simply disagree on that point.

Yeah, still not seeing positive spin in the announced sale analogy. *shrug*

Your last point about someone akways finding fault is correct, and I have numerous times defended Tesla in such cases myself. But that simply isnt even close to being an excuse here in my mind. Tesla knew they had limited the top speed and missing normal-mode/promised range, and intentionally neglected to inform customers about it in front of deliveries. Then Elon commented on this and deleted his comment soon after. That makes me worried.

I have no idea why 'normal' mode isn't yet in the cars. Perhaps at the last minute someone found a bug, and maybe it was considered a serious bug, and maybe because of that and wanting to get the cars to their customers (you know, to make them happy by delivering them on time as promised, before the end of the year, blah, blah, blah), the lessor of the two evils was to block out normal mode, send the cars out, and work on fixing the bug. People get their cars on time, complain anyway because normal mode isn't there (while having fun punching the car in insane mode), Elon tries to alleviate range concerns, people get more upset, have more questions, Elon facepalms seeing that his attempt to assure people it's coming has been thwarted, deletes the tweets with the intent of doing a fully detailed blog, now you're worried, and on and on it goes. I tell ya, it's better than a Wednesday night soap opera.

Don't people have New Year's Eve parties to organize?

 

[NigelM]

I have no idea why 'normal' mode isn't yet in the cars. Perhaps at the last minute someone found a bug, and maybe it was considered a serious bug, and maybe because of that and wanting to get the cars to their customers (you know, to make them happy by delivering them on time as promised, before the end of the year, blah, blah, blah), the lessor of the two evils was to block out normal mode, send the cars out, and work on fixing the bug.

Assume that's true, then if Tesla had just communicated that at the time the rest of it (and this entire thread) wouldn't even exist.

Many folks here (myself included) have a tendency to interpret and try to read things into Tesla's various signals; it's a learned behavior and I think Tesla knows they need to improve communications to prevent resulting disappointment. In the meantime, I think it's actually helpful for Tesla to go through these things and hopefully that learning curve someone else mentioned will actually start to turn upwards a little faster.

 

[dennis]

Don't people have New Year's Eve parties to organize?

Those who already have their P85D's are busy organizing side-by-side comparisons with the P85. They want to prove that the P85D is less efficient when not operated in the missing efficiency (i.e. Normal) mode. Q.E.D.

 

[jerjozwik]

...deletes the tweets with the intent of doing a fully detailed blog, now you're worried, and on and on it goes. I tell ya, it's better than a Wednesday night soap opera.

while i can understand the p85d purchasers gripes, the above statement is why i keep reading all the P85D threads. maybe they have forgotten what "early adopter" status means?

 

[danp]

When did Tesla or Elon claim that the range of the P85D would match or exceed that of the P85? I recall that claim was for the 85D (having 10 more miles of range vs the 85), and that the only goal for the P85D was to match the acceleration of the McLaren F1. This is in the announcement blog post:

Dual Motor Model S and Autopilot | Blog | Tesla Motors

 

[Mercury]

When did Tesla or Elon claim that the range of the P85D would match or exceed that of the P85? I recall that claim was for the 85D (having 10 more miles of range vs the 85), and that the only goal for the P85D was to match the acceleration of the McLaren F1. This is in the announcement blog post:

Dual Motor Model S and Autopilot | Blog | Tesla Motors

Long time lurker, but you might find this of interest: Tesla Model S P85D Gets Price Slashed By $14,500, Range Now Listed At 285 Miles

Of particular note is the 285 miles shown on the website. A quick Google search for "p85d range" will yield a number of interesting blog entries discussing the changes, including various links showing Tesla indicating the P85D range is higher than the P85.

I followed Tesla for a few years before ordering in August, being a software guy and liking how the company is run like a software development process. When the D announcement came out, I switched over, and a big factor was keeping the range and getting a bit more. Now I'm a few days from "delivery" and I have some pretty serious concerns.

The act of deleting a tweet is socially accepted as one of contrition or concealment. It doesn't matter how you analyze it or deconstruct it, it just is that way: just like farting in an elevator. So while I'm not ready to indict Elon (and Tesla Motors) for false advertising, it is a very big red flag.

 

[dennis]

When did Tesla or Elon claim that the range of the P85D would match or exceed that of the P85? I recall that claim was for the 85D (having 10 more miles of range vs the 85), and that the only goal for the P85D was to match the acceleration of the McLaren F1. This is in the announcement blog post:

Dual Motor Model S and Autopilot | Blog | Tesla Motors

Agree. Here are the operative words on efficiency from that blog post:

The P85D combines the performance of the P85 rear motor with an additional 50 percent of torque available from our new front drive unit. The result is the fastest accelerating four-door production car of all time – while remaining one of the most efficient cars on the road.

They also claimed 275 miles of range at 65 mph for the P85D, later changed to 285. The S 85 was also shown to have 285 miles of range at a constant 65 mph. So equal at best.

 

[wk057]

Just did another trip down the highway a little ways, and I must admit that every time I do I get a bit irritated at the numbers. At the efficiency I get on the short trips it is almost cheaper to buy gas for an average vehicle...

 

[jerjozwik]

Just did another trip down the highway a little ways, and I must admit that every time I do I get a bit irritated at the numbers. At the efficiency I get on the short trips it is almost cheaper to buy gas for an average vehicle...

today that is true, 6 months ago though...

 

[JST]

When did Tesla or Elon claim that the range of the P85D would match or exceed that of the P85? I recall that claim was for the 85D (having 10 more miles of range vs the 85), and that the only goal for the P85D was to match the acceleration of the McLaren F1. This is in the announcement blog post:

Dual Motor Model S and Autopilot | Blog | Tesla Motors

The window sticker states that the P85D has a better highway efficiency rating than the P85. That suggests that at highway speeds you should see better--or at least equivalent--energy usage and range.

No one has seen that yet.

 

[darthy001]

Assume that's true, then if Tesla had just communicated that at the time the rest of it (and this entire thread) wouldn't even exist.

Many folks here (myself included) have a tendency to interpret and try to read things into Tesla's various signals; it's a learned behavior and I think Tesla knows they need to improve communications to prevent resulting disappointment. In the meantime, I think it's actually helpful for Tesla to go through these things and hopefully that learning curve someone else mentioned will actually start to turn upwards a little faster.

This hits the nail square on the head the entire issue would be solved by giving out information up front. Then the buyer can make an informed decision when taking delivery.

 

[Krugerrand]

Assume that's true, then if Tesla had just communicated that at the time the rest of it (and this entire thread) wouldn't even exist.

That's entirely a possibility as is communicating normal mode is held up due to whatever, people still get upset, the media catches hold of it, turns it into what they always turn it into and we're exactly where we are now. Because that's never happened before. :wink:

- - - Updated - - -

This hits the nail square on the head the entire issue would be solved by giving out information up front. Then the buyer can make an informed decision when taking delivery.

No, it absolutely would NOT solve the entire issue. You might not be upset, but I guarantee someone else would take your place.

 

[Johan]

Let's have some faith. Elon giveth and Elon taketh away. I know I'm a beleiber.

 

[Bet TSLA]

This hits the nail square on the head the entire issue would be solved by giving out information up front. Then the buyer can make an informed decision when taking delivery.

If the buyer doesn't believe what Tesla says then nothing will help. The truth is that a safety issue could conceivably, tomorrow, mean that Tesla halves the range of all its vehicles. Let's say they discover a serious safety bug in their software, perhaps under certain unusual conditions the batteries may explode. The only quick fix is to go way conservative on range, limiting the amount of charge. What do they do? What do you do?

It's easy. They put out a mandatory software update with a promise to fix the problem as quickly as they can. A few owners say how nice it is that Tesla is taking care of them. But most scream and whine and threaten to sue and so on. Tesla's reputation takes a big hit. The stock temporarily plummets. Pundits wisely intone the doom of the BEV. The non-participants buy popcorn. Eventually Tesla finds a solution and restores things to (almost) as good as they were.

It is to avoid such a situation that quality assurance on new software and hardware at Tesla is so rigorous. It takes time for extensive testing. The system is both complex and closely coupled (an engineering term meaning, more or less, that seemingly unrelated parts affect each other more than one may expect). This means that you're never really sure you've got it right, so all you can do is mitigate risk as best you can. Tesla is both blazing new trails in hardware and going further into software control than anybody else -- this is very dangerous territory.

I am very happy to let others be the early adopters on things like the D. I'm happy to wait for Tesla to say it's gotten various autopilot features right before releasing them. And I'm okay with trusting Tesla to do what it says, although I never count on its timelines. If you are unwilling to trust Tesla, you really shouldn't be owning their cars. If you want the latest and greatest and insist that it works perfectly, you are destined for unhappiness.

The only accurate information that Tesla could provide up front is "We don't know. We'll get there when we get there." The rest is speculation and noise and hope.

 

[dennis]

The only accurate information that Tesla could provide up front is "We don't know. We'll get there when we get there." The rest is speculation and noise and hope.

Which would explain the lawyers making Elon delete the Twitter posts.

 

[darthy001]

If the buyer doesn't believe what Tesla says then nothing will help. The truth is that a safety issue could conceivably, tomorrow, mean that Tesla halves the range of all its vehicles. Let's say they discover a serious safety bug in their software, perhaps under certain unusual conditions the batteries may explode. The only quick fix is to go way conservative on range, limiting the amount of charge. What do they do? What do you do?

It's easy. They put out a mandatory software update with a promise to fix the problem as quickly as they can. A few owners say how nice it is that Tesla is taking care of them. But most scream and whine and threaten to sue and so on. Tesla's reputation takes a big hit. The stock temporarily plummets. Pundits wisely intone the doom of the BEV. The non-participants buy popcorn. Eventually Tesla finds a solution and restores things to (almost) as good as they were.

It is to avoid such a situation that quality assurance on new software and hardware at Tesla is so rigorous. It takes time for extensive testing. The system is both complex and closely coupled (an engineering term meaning, more or less, that seemingly unrelated parts affect each other more than one may expect). This means that you're never really sure you've got it right, so all you can do is mitigate risk as best you can. Tesla is both blazing new trails in hardware and going further into software control than anybody else -- this is very dangerous territory.

I am very happy to let others be the early adopters on things like the D. I'm happy to wait for Tesla to say it's gotten various autopilot features right before releasing them. And I'm okay with trusting Tesla to do what it says, although I never count on its timelines. If you are unwilling to trust Tesla, you really shouldn't be owning their cars. If you want the latest and greatest and insist that it works perfectly, you are destined for unhappiness.

The only accurate information that Tesla could provide up front is "We don't know. We'll get there when we get there." The rest is speculation and noise and hope.

@Bet TSLA I honestly dont get the point of all of this. This isnt something they have fixed retroactively like the autolowering etc. This is something they have sold and not delivered without any info about it from day1. This is done 100% on purpose. So someone has figured out that delivering an unfinished product is OK without telling the customer up front. That is to me NOT OK. I cannot believe that someone actually defends this behaviour from Tesla at this point in time. Unless worried about stock prices. And if you are long on TSLA you should not defend this, because this will hurt Tesla in the long run if they never learn.

I am perfectly fine with autopilot not being enabled yet. I will be perfectly fine if I dont get a heated steering wheel. Autopilot they gave info upfront that it was coming later. Heated steering wheel has never been promised.

Range and speed has been promised and is actually still promised without any change in Norway....

I have never said I expected a perfect car either. If I expected a perfect car I wouldnt even consider thinking about a Tesla. But if Tesla knows that the car they are delivering is less then what I ordered I expect them to tell me and let me have an informed choice of refusing delivery. Otherwise they are tricking their customers deliberately, and that is not good if the press starts writing about it.

And please show me where on the ordering page Tesla states that I am an early adopter that needs be be willing to endure such lousy communication and potentially missing features? Its not like they are giving me a beta-tester discount or similar. So please get of your high horse and stop telling people how they should buy cars.

Will I most likely still buy the car? Yes.
Will I keep talking positively about Tesla to friends and coworkers if my car is delivered with poorer ranger then promised? Hell NO.

and thats a damn shame for such an expensive car I am not refreshing tmc to see new pictures, videos etc of the P85D anymore. I am refreshing to see if something happens regardings this annoying mess. Not even remotely exited that my car has gone into production this weekend....

 

[Chris]

Remember how we all got paranoid when they took away the low setting for the air suspension? Took some time but it is now resolved to everyones liking. I am sure the same will happen on the P85D range issue