dhanson865
Well-Known Member
+1
Tires don't like cold, battery pack doesn't like cold, brand new tires on brand new cars are less efficient. We need a few thousand miles on one to break in the tires, wait for a warm day to test.
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+1
Tires don't like cold, battery pack doesn't like cold, brand new tires on brand new cars are less efficient. We need a few thousand miles on one to break in the tires, wait for a warm day to test.
This is very concerning to me because it tells me there is something very wrong with Tesla's communication strategy - which leads directly to Elon Musk. The P85D should never have been launched when it was, when so much was still unknown. Tesla must have been desperate to stimulate end of quarter deliveries of a high margin vehicle in order to undergo this self-inflicted wound. Either that or Tesla's Board of Directors is taking steps to reign in the comments by their CEO. Either way, this doesn't give me a feeling of confidence. In fact, it makes me feel like they are now trying to hide something. I never thought I'd feel this way about Tesla. I hope I'm wrong.
I haven't been on this forum very long, but I have been long-time on others, and one thing that always puzzles me is the notion - cultivated by a select few - that criticism hoping to lead to improvement is somehow irrelevant, because no matter what some people will complain. It is a surprisingly common argument to make and obviously a misleading one. It suggests the amount of complaints would be an absolute, always the same, no matter what a company or a person does - hence there shouldn't be such criticism, because that criticism can only lead to more criticism (say, negative press) and doesn't help at all, because it doesn't remove the complaints anyway. That, to simplify a little, seems to be the argument.
I couldn't disagree more. In reality, in my experience, the amount of complaints is quite fluid and very much relative to what is happening in the world. Just because some action A leads to some people complaining, doesn't mean it couldn't lead to a lot, lot less people complaining than action B. Hence, action A can be much better than action B, even if both had some complainers as a result. Us who wish both Tesla and Tesla owners well, would do well to want things that lessen complaints towards Tesla and within the Tesla owner community I think - we or they may never get rid of complaints and disgruntled people, but making their numbers a lot less is still a very worthy cause.
You who want to keep on pushing Tesla to do better in a constructive, even if critical and strict manner where needed, please continue - online, directly, in public, wherever. In the end, Tesla will be better for it, we will be better for it and the world will be better for it.
I couldn't disagree more. In reality, in my experience, the amount of complaints is quite fluid and very much relative to what is happening in the world. Just because some action A leads to some people complaining, doesn't mean it couldn't lead to a lot, lot less people complaining than action B. Hence, action A can be much better than action B, even if both had some complainers as a result. Us who wish both Tesla and Tesla owners well, would do well to want things that lessen complaints towards Tesla and within the Tesla owner community I think - we or they may never get rid of complaints and disgruntled people, but making their numbers a lot less is still a very worthy cause.
You who want to keep on pushing Tesla to do better in a constructive, even if critical and strict manner where needed, please continue - online, directly, in public, wherever. In the end, Tesla will be better for it, we will be better for it and the world will be better for it.
Thanks for doing the test, and your energy usage is high. I did a 101 total mile roundtrip, retracing my route to a from a destination. There were 4 of us in the car plus some presents and food etc., call it 600 lbs of weight inclusive. My car had 220 miles on the OD when we started the trip. The route was 90% highway, temperature was 60 degrees, we set the car in range mode, and set the cruise control to 67 mph on the highway. The results:
Total Energy: 39.0 kWh
Avg Energy: 386 Wh/mi
My trip was well below your usage of 455 Wh/mi, and only 5% over your P85.
That is really up to people who purchased P85D to decide, say and act on. My understanding is that customers unhappy with their purchase can return the car.
The whole concept of Tesla is indeed a very desperate one, with unbelievably long odds to beat to stay going concern. The only way Tesla can succeed in a world stacked against it is by rapid innovation and by having support of its customers. Perhaps P85D is not what was promised yet, but it is an upgradable car, likely to be upgraded to much more than what was promised.
Krugerrand
Meow
No, you misunderstand. There's a difference between going to an Internet forum to complain about an issue, rant and rave, threaten lawsuit, etc... than to go to the source and deal directly with that/those which you have issue with. Just because some Tesla employees read this forum, and a resolution to a problem is implemented doesn't make complaining here effective, appreciated by Tesla, or the right way to do things. Certainly not as a first step, or a second, or even a third. But perhaps I'm just being an old fuddy duddy having been taught that if you have a problem with someone, you discuss it directly with them. Where I'm from, going public is a last resort when every other possibility is exhausted AND one has been grievously wronged.
One of the best ways to view any situation is to walk a mile in the other person's shoes, first. If you owned a company like Tesla, trying to change a multi-trillion dollar industry on a shoestring budget (relative), under intense media scrutiny, fighting powerful, well-heeled politicians and organizations, bombarded constantly from all directions for every little thing, you might just have a slightly different opinion about some of the criticism and how it's doled out. There's a reason that several people have commented over the last couple of years that the criticism sometimes comes across as whiny or seemingly from a place of entitlement.
So, no, I don't think anyone is of the opinion that people should never criticize or complain. Time and place for everything. But as often as some want to criticize Tesla's communications (which most? will agree suffers at times), they might want to take a look at how they themselves communicate as well. Never forget that it's another person on the receiving end of that criticism or complaint and think about how you'd feel and react to some of the stuff that gets said on this forum.
If one truly wants to help Tesla, then the criticism needs to be constructive and delivered directly to the person/people who have the power to do something about it. Otherwise it's complaining with intent to help only oneself (time and place for that as well, but don't pretend it's for the good of someone/something else). Of all those who have publically stated that Tesla's communications suck, how many have contacted the head of Tesla's Communications department and either written or spoken directly?
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
I e-mailed Investor relations expressing my concern about Tesla's public communications strategy on this issue (as a car owner and stock holder) but haven't heard back.
I can't speak for everyone, but, I've done this, not that I've received any responses as of yet. I have individually written messages out to many at Tesla regarding the range issue.
I think the issue here is that the concerns are valid, yet too many people feel the need to attempt to dismiss other's valid concerns. Honestly, that's probably the only reason I even bother to continue posting at all about the issue. Nothing has changed, so there really isn't much left to discuss unless some new data is acquired and put into the mix (like my P85 vs P85D efficiency testing I plan on doing.) Yet people with no first hand knowledge of the situation feel the need to belittle the issue, which really isn't acceptable.
Tesla is not perfect, accept this and don't be blinded.
I've emailed all my complaints to ownership, as I believe that's the correct place to send them. My assumption is that they will pass them on to the correct people (that's what the replies always say). If they haven't, then I've wasted a lot of electrons.
Tesla is still claiming 285@65 in Norway so I am waiting with contacting them about this until that changes. Anyway my DS hasnt answered my last emails so not very encouraging anyway. And of course I am polite in my emails.
edit: but many others have written about contacting Tesla and even getting responses from higher-ups as well.
edit: but many others have written about contacting Tesla and even getting responses from higher-ups as well.
That hardly relates to my point that "someone always complains" is used as a counter-argument in attempts to discuss improving Tesla's communications and other mishaps. I don't think anyone, least of all Tesla, would be wise to think that "someone always complains" is a reason to stop improving or talking of what and how to improve. Someone may always complain, but in reality improvements can and will lessen the number of disgruntled people - not eliminate the complaints entirely, but possibly significantly lessen them. And that's a valuable goal. That was the point of my message.
As for whom the criticism should be directed, public discourse can be a mighty motivator, but also a helpful peer-support group for those taking part. Many have voiced, even in this thread, that they feel they wouldn't even complain quite as much, or quite as loudly, if they felt heard by their peers. Every time someone feels their legitimate grievance gets responded belittlingly or pushed aside too lightly (don't talk here, press can see you kind of stuff), that is one less person feeling that support from peers. I'm not sure people apologizing for Tesla this way are necessarily doing Tesla or any of us any favours. I doubt Tesla needs any of our apologies, nor do they need us to push aside any issues they may have. A solid dialogue and honest internal camaraderie between/within Tesla and Tesla owners would, to me, sound the best policy. Pushing things aside may just aggrevate the situation, when those feeling not heard tune up the volume in response.
Someone feeling 20-25% range missing from their P85D certainly should deserve to discuss it on a Tesla enthusiast forum, if they so feel, without their motivations or reliability being too hastily questioned. Of course they can be asked for more information and confirmation, I'm not suggesting blindly believing every post either. And Tesla is free to listen or even join the conversation, but even a solid conversation itself can be threpeutic and allow hashing out the extent of the issue amongst the owners. Some letter to someone at Tesla, which may or may not get answered or processed, does not enjoy that benefit.
Of course I think contacting the manufacturer of any product directly, too, is always a good idea.
Krugerrand
Meow
I've read all the threads. Who are these 'too many people' dismissing your concerns as not valid? I didn't see any of that. I have seen people suggest that now that you've voiced those concerns, give Tesla a chance to address them by being patient. What's done is done. It can't be changed. So, constructively moving forward is the best way to continue, no?
All of us here know why the next gen seats aren't in all the new cars. That was entirely out of Tesla's hands, they don't control Port Authorities, truckers, or the weather and many forget that the reason the first set of seats didn't get put in cars was because they didn't have a perfect 5* rating. Tesla deemed if they didn't have a 5* rating, they weren't good enough for their customers. They didn't tell you that. Yep, I know. Everyone who wants the new seats will get them. Remember Tesla does not make the seats, they come from a seat supplier. In the meantime, everyone has got perfectly good, safe seats with which to drive their cars and carry passengers. Right? So, get out there and enjoy those awesome cars!
We know that Elon Musk knows about the range. Can we give the man and his crew some time to resolve it with a firmware update that adds in 'normal' mode? Yep, I understand many were expecting to receive their cars with normal mode already available. None of us knows what happened there. Some automatically want to think nefarious thoughts, when it might be something like a bug was found at the last moment, or they weren't 100 percent happy with the drive quality and didn't want to send it out that way, or, or, or. Yep, I understand you aren't happy about it. Yep, I understand Tesla isn't saying at this point. Presumably you've made your discontent known to the proper people within Tesla. While you're waiting for resolution, enjoy your awesome car.
I don't believe anyone has ever said that Tesla is perfect. Tesla is a group of fallible people, like you and me. Doing the best they can, like you and me. None of this post is a dismissal of your concerns.
Well-stated. I always thought those "why are you talking about it here?" arguments were quite silly and dismissive. This is an internet forum centered around Tesla Motors, what else are we supposed to do if not discuss the company and its products whether good or bad?
Come to think of it, I haven't heard anyone say Ford and Kia are perfect either.
I don't believe you need to purchase a P85D in order to objectively assess Tesla's product launch. Tesla is a small, young and scrappy company. But it will soon find itself with a scarlet letter embroidered on its chest if it continues to miscommunicate on such a high level. I want Tesla to have a good reputation by the time Model 3 is announced. The issues we are seeing with the P85D launch are exactly the kinds of issues that harm a company's credibility. There was no need to launch the P85D in October, Tesla very well could have waited until it had its ducks in a row. To say that Tesla needed to launch when it did would require an explanation of why it was so urgent to do so. The only reason would be end of quarter sales, which leads to an even more serious concern.
Another perspective to consider: Telling someone with a grievance to go enjoy the product can feel quite dismissive, even if that is not the intent. More so, I have a hard time seeing when such a comment could even be helpful. If I'm not enjoying the product, someone telling me to enjoy it is not going to change things - in any positive way at least. And on the other hand, it sounds like people with a grievance couldn't already be enjoying the product too. Many of such people are, they just have this grievance they want to discuss in addition. "Go enjoy the product" sounds like an attempt at a conversation killer and that's why it easily sounds dismissive, even when it may have just been helpful encouragement. Often a far more effective way at positively bringing a discussion to conclusion is to leave the other party with the feeling they were heard and have them shutdown on their own.
These are not mutually exclusive things: one can discuss Tesla's issues and still enjoy their Tesla, both the car and the company.
Krugerrand
Meow
Someone always does complain. That's a fact and as valid a point as any, particularly when the original complaint is phrased: If Tesla had done this, then all would be fine in the world. Because that's simply not true. What is far more accurate is: If Tesla had done this instead of that, then *I* would be happy in this moment. There are plenty of people who aren't the least bit upset about their P85D car.
Okay, so how much more can be discussed about Tesla improving their communications? What hasn't already been said? Has the criticism to date been effective? Are we beating a dead horse at this stage? Are we getting different? better? results than 6 months ago? a year ago? Criticize away, but it does Tesla (and arguably us) no good unless it's getting results. This isn't the first crack at the communication can on this forum.
I've been on this forum long enough to have see plenty of comments posted and the tigers come out and go up one side of Tesla and down the other only to have it discovered that the information posted was bogus. Again, all of this works both ways. You don't want people to have their motivations or reliability being too hastily questioned and yet that's exactly what some people do to the people who make up Tesla. Elon deletes a couple to twitter posts and he's suddenly the Antichrist. This is the nature of some people, to think the worst of others and that they're out to get them. This is not a battle of Tesla VS The Consumer, and yet that's exactly how it's coming across from some.
I, personally, don't do complaint letters/e-mails unless I have a solid relationship with the person on the other end. Too easy for the person on the hot seat to avoid it, not answer it, claim they didn't get it. I'm all about good, old fashion face to face (phone call works fine); I bought a P85D and just took delivery. Man, I love how it accelerates. I've noticed, though, that it doesn't have 'normal' mode in the options and as a result my range sucks. Oh, you don't know when that'll be implemented? Would your manager know? How about the Regional Manager? I'm sorry to be hassling you about this since I know there isn't anything you can do about it, but I just paid quite a bit for this car and I was under the impression I could expect my range to be such and such per the Tesla website. I also saw a video online of the launch event and Elon Musk said such and such. It's imperative I have that range otherwise I can't use the car for its intended purpose. If you can't direct me to someone who can help me, then I'd like to make an appointment to return the car as I did not receive the product as advertised.
I imagine that if someone high enough up was receiving enough of those kinds of forwarded messages and phone calls, consumers would hear right quick. But if you're of the mind to go all public on Tesla and think that's the best way to go about it, then why mess around on an enthusiast forum at all? Why not go for the throat and post on their FB page, or Tweet Elon directly? That's a couple million people worth of exposure.
Nobody is dismissing anyone's valid concerns. Nobody is suggesting Tesla is perfect. Nobody is saying that criticism of Tesla isn't sometimes warranted. We simply have a group of people who differ in opinion on what's worth getting our panties tied in a knot over.
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It is within one's ability to choose to be offended or not, regardless of intent. If you don't want to enjoy your awesome car, then don't. It's your right. If you want to be offended by me wanting you to be less upset and more happy, and to enjoy your car while we wait for Tesla to resolve the issue, have at it. If you feel it's more rewarding to wind yourself up over and over and over again, I'm okay with that too. Seriously.
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