HELOC is a completely different ball game. It is physical asset that rarely loses value of say 10% on a single day, nor lose its value completely to zero either. Although there have been real estate bubbles that have crashed 30 to 40% in some areas, but that is a rare event.
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Elon Musk documentary/factual tonight
- Thread starter Pink Duck
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- channel 4 documentary Elon Musk tv
Undecided_2
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I hadn’t factored those. At the end of the day nothing is going to change and taxing the ultra wealthy isn’t going to happen anytime soon if at all.
Personally, all the rich are doing is using laws to their advantage to pay less tax on their wealth. Why not? I do where possible as do many of my friends. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
The discord and polarising opinions around Musk are fascinating to me. Probably more fascinating than what he has done personally. And I say that not to diminish his achievements, but because I have a deep rooted respect for the people behind the scenes 'who do the doing' as well as those like Musk, who put pieces together at an extraordinarily high level to push things forward.
The people who 'do the doing' are in my opinion, talked about and recognised far less than they should be, but I suppose you could argue that people need a focus point to praise on behalf of a bigger effort. I think we want and will always want people who are focal points to simplify the process of giving praise or admonishing them (a heuristic of sorts), so even if Musk didn't want to be the focal point he is (he probably does just by-the-by) he may not have a choice. It's not practical for every engineer or creative mind making Space X and Tesla a thing to be idolised like Musk is by some.
Him, Gates and Jobs are just three examples of a small group of people who have come to wield enormous power, with which they can do good or bad, and there is a leap of faith required for people to follow or hate any or all of them.
RE: the cave diving situation, I have no stance other than being glad that there were positives that came from it, and that the petty squabbling of a small number of "adults" behaving like idiots quite frankly didn't entirely undermine or overwrite what was essentially a success for people clutched from the jaws of tragedy. I firmly believe from everything I've read and seen about it that the majority of experienced individuals involved got their heads down and got on with solving the small problems one by one in spite of those who turned up full of pomp and wanting to prove they were the alpha problem solver or go-to person.
Is the documentary worth a watch on catchup, or is it all basic details and filler that we all already know?
The people who 'do the doing' are in my opinion, talked about and recognised far less than they should be, but I suppose you could argue that people need a focus point to praise on behalf of a bigger effort. I think we want and will always want people who are focal points to simplify the process of giving praise or admonishing them (a heuristic of sorts), so even if Musk didn't want to be the focal point he is (he probably does just by-the-by) he may not have a choice. It's not practical for every engineer or creative mind making Space X and Tesla a thing to be idolised like Musk is by some.
Him, Gates and Jobs are just three examples of a small group of people who have come to wield enormous power, with which they can do good or bad, and there is a leap of faith required for people to follow or hate any or all of them.
RE: the cave diving situation, I have no stance other than being glad that there were positives that came from it, and that the petty squabbling of a small number of "adults" behaving like idiots quite frankly didn't entirely undermine or overwrite what was essentially a success for people clutched from the jaws of tragedy. I firmly believe from everything I've read and seen about it that the majority of experienced individuals involved got their heads down and got on with solving the small problems one by one in spite of those who turned up full of pomp and wanting to prove they were the alpha problem solver or go-to person.
Is the documentary worth a watch on catchup, or is it all basic details and filler that we all already know?
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You make a good point
Behind Jobs initially was Wazniak, and many attrtibute part of the revival of Apple to people like Jony Ive. Maybe Jobs had the idea of something that became the iphone, or he backed the idea presented to him, but either way its people like Ive that made it happen.
Tesla are no different, the long time design genious was Straubel. Musk may have had the aspirations, juggled the funding, built the perception, but it was Straubel who found the way to make the cars.
It's going to be kind of interesting to see how things pan out now both Ive and Straubel have left. Musk seems to have shifted his technical front man to Karpathy but he's AI and thats still very much a work in progress.
There's a lot to be said for the big front man with the big ideas and vision. You can add Bezos to the list. All of them polarise opinion.
My opinion of Musk has diminished in recent weeks. I always accepted he was a mercurial individual, and a good figurehead for Tesla in the same vein as Jobs was for Apple. Neither man is/was virtuous, though, so one had to make peace with that somehow.
Of late Musk has veered too far off into full time internet troll territory for my liking. Some of the comments he's made about the Twitter takeover are at best highly unprofessional. Some of them seem to be technically securities fraud, or illegal in some other way. I think he knows that whatever fine gets from the SEC, if any, is dwarfed by whatever financial gain he receives from making these statements in the first place.
He seems to be revelling in pushing buttons lately, more deliberately and consistently than he has in the past. I don't really like this direction and am frankly embarassed by the association in the car I'm driving.
Of late Musk has veered too far off into full time internet troll territory for my liking. Some of the comments he's made about the Twitter takeover are at best highly unprofessional. Some of them seem to be technically securities fraud, or illegal in some other way. I think he knows that whatever fine gets from the SEC, if any, is dwarfed by whatever financial gain he receives from making these statements in the first place.
He seems to be revelling in pushing buttons lately, more deliberately and consistently than he has in the past. I don't really like this direction and am frankly embarassed by the association in the car I'm driving.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Indeed. It takes someone with multiple attributes to succeed. Same for an athlete - rarely enough to be "fastest in class", also need to be "pushy" in early stages to get funding - and to be prepared to actually put in the hours of gruelling training (or in business long hours, evenings and weekends, working) ... then for a sportsperson aspiring to the highest level they need to become an ambassador - to attract sponsorship, or for a talent-scout to decide that they will do a good job in representing their country. People who succeed typically have a bunch of things going for them, and also are prepared to put up with being in the limelight. Not everyone is going to like them - some will resent their success - maybe even their, former, best friends ... or decide to become a stalker and all that sort of stuff that people in the public eye have to put up with. Not everyone wants that!
Try winning the lottery Big and see how that mucks everything up. Friends jealous and desert you. People you had no idea were friends arrive with their begging bowls! Thieves target you for the things you have just found you can afford to buy, or they kidnap your kids. Con artists target you as a soft touch.
I think that's probably been the case "forever", I think that such people succeed in part because they are wired-differently and some of that wiring is "unconventional" shall we say! ... although news-travels-faster nowadays ... and fake-news with it ... so probably more noticeable now, than before
One thing that such people can do is attract the best talent. If Musk decides he wants to do "X", he can entice people who know about that to join him - some of them will have been desperately trying to get funding (and failing) - they just don't have the "ambassador" skills to achieve that - for boffin and anoraks with two heads the job offer would be nirvana. Budget big enough to do whatever you like, and the thrill of having-a-go. No doubt more lucrative to set up on your own and build it yourself ... but Dragon's Den littered with people who haven't accomplished that.
My memory may be faulty, but my recollection of reading his biography was that, as an engineer, he was able to understand the subject matter. So having attracted the best talent he then worked with them, his enquiring mind caused him to quiz them on everything, and he then wound up with a very significant degree of knowledge. Repeat that multiple times, over multiple such start-up-projects, and then, as the Boss, his decision making process for products is better than most of the other captains of industry out there who have been trained to "run a company", but don't have a detailed knowledge of the engineering behind the product. Steve Jobs another case in point.
Dunno about SEC but IIRC if either party pulls out of the deal the "breakup fee" is $1B ... so if Musk is pulling out he had better have a jolly good, irrefutable, reason!
Before I bought my S and for several months after I was an EM fan but no longer. Admittedly he has made a pile through finding and funding niche and innovative products but any suggestion of altruism is misplaced however much he promotes that.
As for Twitter.. well a mere billion default is meaningless here. For all we know the whole thing is to game Tesla share price. He sold stock to raise $12billion?? and the market reacted with a 30:% drop. Rebuy and he's got it all back plus.
Like any successful businessman he's all about making dosh before keeping promises
As for Twitter.. well a mere billion default is meaningless here. For all we know the whole thing is to game Tesla share price. He sold stock to raise $12billion?? and the market reacted with a 30:% drop. Rebuy and he's got it all back plus.
Like any successful businessman he's all about making dosh before keeping promises
Yes, you are right. Elon is not just a corporate man to be the focal point neither Jobs was. They ar(were)e always engineers and knew not only the product but the software language. Jobs had said in many interviews Wozniak and Ivy were product guys. But any amount of money given to them wasn’t going to make Apple become as successful without Jobs genius. The same applies to Elon.
Yup, exactly.
This is an interesting analysis and summary of it all, I think: Elon Musk Trolls Twitter
Musk has form for this sort of pivoting. I remember him accepting Bitcoin payments for Tesla only to remove it less than 2 months later, citing "the environmental impact of Bitcoin mining". Now, that is probably all true but surely it's not even what you'd consider due diligence to "discover" this after the fact? Everyone and their granny knows about the energy usage and ergo environmental impact of mining crypto, even if they know nothing else about it. It's pretty much the primary criticism of Bitcoin, yet taking Musk at face value as to why he stopped taking BTC payments this is some sort of revelation to him. It rings hollow.
Likewise, Twitter's filings about percentage of accounts believed to be bots that Musk is taking issue with have been publicly available for years for Musk to digest before making a takeover bid. To bring it up now just seems bizarre, unless it is nakedly to try and renegotiate the price downwards. Again, to say these sorts of things publicly - tanking the price of Twitter in the process, is surely securities fraud. For someone who basically lives their live on Twitter to be surprised that many of his followers are probably bots should not be (and I'd argue is not) a revelation to him.
But, as that article says, Musk basically doesn't care and will carry on doing what he wants in defiance of the SEC, contracts he has signed, etc. It's not a good look.
The Bloomberg article is an opinion piece, and is not objective.
Has anyone reviewed the Twitter SEC filings with regard to the disclosure relating to BOT account prevalence? If that disclosure is materially inaccurate (I haven't bothered to look into it myself), then I would assert it is Twitter that has committed a disclosure violation. Public filings are meant to be accurate to the best of the knowledge and belief of the board of directors of the company. I hesitate to bandy about an assertion of fraud, but the public filings are required to be accurate.
When making a buy-out offer for a public company, in most cases the bidder has only the publicly available information to rely on. I am not privy to this particular deal but it is no secret that the board did not exactly embrace Elon's offer and it is not hard to imagine that they didn't provide him with a lot of (if any) non-public information to help him refine his price.
Has anyone reviewed the Twitter SEC filings with regard to the disclosure relating to BOT account prevalence? If that disclosure is materially inaccurate (I haven't bothered to look into it myself), then I would assert it is Twitter that has committed a disclosure violation. Public filings are meant to be accurate to the best of the knowledge and belief of the board of directors of the company. I hesitate to bandy about an assertion of fraud, but the public filings are required to be accurate.
When making a buy-out offer for a public company, in most cases the bidder has only the publicly available information to rely on. I am not privy to this particular deal but it is no secret that the board did not exactly embrace Elon's offer and it is not hard to imagine that they didn't provide him with a lot of (if any) non-public information to help him refine his price.
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WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Not sure about that. My understanding is that Twitter says that < 5% are spam. Musk wants < 5% - so they are aligned. Musk now claiming that isn't the case. Either because of new information, or for nefarious reasons
I reckon there is a difference between the due diligence that can be done with publicly available documents, and the stuff that is shared during acquisition.
Quite commonly, one of the conditions to closing of a public company offer is that the information in public filings was true and correct when made, since that info is generally all the bidder had to go on when setting a price. This is borne out via post offer confirmatory due diligence. I suspect that is what has gone on with the Twitter bid. Do I think Musk should be airing dirty laundry in public forums -- NO. But I could be sympathetic to pausing a deal where the public information turns out to be materially inaccurate and impacts upon one of the basis used in arriving at the valuation.
Typical media brain washing in display. Musk does not care one bit about amassing wealth or chasing dollars for personal gain. People who have been following him for years know this. If you are only exposed to media narrative that he is a fraud, then you are a victim of their gaslighting.
Yes his incessant trolling is childish and unprofessional, but he has shown an amazing ability to change his mind overnight with enough evidence. I can say confidently he is the only CEO & business leader that I can trust my money with. Will he fail by executing a series of mis-steps? Sure. Success is not guaranteed. But I would not in a 100 years assign any nefarious motives to any of his actions.
Well said and he is the only CEO who can talk about his product with the knowledge and understanding any engineering pro would be proud of. I am not including twitter here!
In my opinion, like any sweeping generalisation, this particular comment is neither justified nor accurate. Do you have factual information proving that all successful businessmen break promises to ensure they maximise profits? You are welcome to think this way if you want to, but really it is just your opinion, not a proven truth about businessmen in general.
There are for sure some actions and opinions spouted by EM that I don't agree with and don't like, but also a large number of actions, achievements and opinions of his that I do admire and agree with. In particular, I have seen little evidence that he is someone driven exclusively by the motive of boosting his own private wealth. Quite the opposite in fact.
I'm bemused by the sheer degree of personal animosity expressed about EM, as illustrated in this thread. I wonder how much of this is really driven by an informed and balanced analysis of all his comments and actions, as opposed to being motivated instead by simple jealousy of his extraordinary wealth, remarkable achievements, global celebrity and undoubted influence? Not to mention the fact that he seems to have had his share of beautiful women, indeed, probably some of my share as well...
There is this VM group that doesn’t like Elon and it is good we are not wasting our time.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Reminds me of the book "Accidental empires" (and the subtitle "How the Boys of Silicon Valley Make Their Millions, Battle Foreign Competition and Still Can't Get a Date"
)They (Apple, Microsoft et al) set out doing something they enjoyed and were good at - and wound up incomprehensively successful.
Plenty of others set out at the same time, with similar ideas, just disappeared into a footnote of history.
He is just embarrassing himself with "woke virus destroying civilization".
He has been smelling his own farts for too long.
If you believe he doesn't care about money, then you might be caught up in the smell. He has agreed to buy Twitter at the top and has to pay off all debt if Tesla hits $500, he is now saying anything to get out of it with paying the $1bn clause. Using Tesla shares to buy Twitter at the top for his own ego is ridiculous, he is dragging both down.
He needs to concentrate on Tesla and spacex or they unravel. I'm interested to see if Tesla make a better car than the model 3 because it's been 5 years, lots of promises and only a bigger and uglier SUV to show for it.
He has been smelling his own farts for too long.
If you believe he doesn't care about money, then you might be caught up in the smell. He has agreed to buy Twitter at the top and has to pay off all debt if Tesla hits $500, he is now saying anything to get out of it with paying the $1bn clause. Using Tesla shares to buy Twitter at the top for his own ego is ridiculous, he is dragging both down.
He needs to concentrate on Tesla and spacex or they unravel. I'm interested to see if Tesla make a better car than the model 3 because it's been 5 years, lots of promises and only a bigger and uglier SUV to show for it.
This is broadly my take.
I’ve been far more impressed by the speed at which other manufacturers are bringing stuff out. Every iteration seems like a leap forwards.
For all the purported software updates our cars get, the big selling point of them, everything else has basically stood still. In tech terms besides the battery efficiency and general slickness of the UI our cars are lacking more and more stuff as time goes on, and the stuff we do have barely works properly (most of the self driving stuff in Europe compared to US, auto wipers, auto headlights, etc)
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