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Elon Musk tweets software upgrade will increase P85D range

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Agree with all of this. So, has anyone contacted ownership or Jerome and are you getting any answers? I plan to ask them, simply -- "please explain how it is that a) the P85D can achieve 285 miles on a single charge and b) why is it not the case that the P85D is more efficient than the P85, as you and your sales team touted?"

I wouldn't email that to Jerome. Don't be accusatory and don't put him on defense. That doesn't seem very professional or courteous, just my opinion.
 
I wouldn't email that to Jerome. Don't be accusatory and don't put him on defense. That doesn't seem very professional, just my opinion.

I'm confused. Everyone from Elon down to the multiple sales people I have been talking about 285 miles per charge, being more efficient than the P85, up until recently. On that basis, *many* owners took the incremental $40K hit to upgrade from a P85+.

And you think it's unprofessional to ask them why the discrepancy and lack of communication after thousands of orders and and many confused owners?

Please help me understand what I'm missing.
 
20 hardware changes each week... Continuous improvement.

thats great. i support that.

doesnt change the fact that the promise is yet fulfilled. therefore, unfinished product.

So same thing. Just change a couple words in the sentence: Oh, you mean selling a car with a 'promised' working ignition switch?

if you want to put tesla cars on the same reliability level as GM cars, thats your choice. As a tesla fan, i hesitate to do that, myself.

look guys, there's a reason people like me keep harping on about unfulfilled promises. If tesla pulls this again with the X, the average SUV buyer (a la soccer moms, and to a lesser extent, dads) is less forgiving than performance sedan enthusiasts.

and if tesla does this again with the 3, the average buyer will also be far less forgiving than even the X buyer.
 
I'm confused. Everyone from Elon down to the multiple sales people I have been talking about 285 miles per charge, being more efficient than the P85, up until recently. On that basis, *many* owners took the incremental $40K hit to upgrade from a P85+.

And you think it's unprofessional to ask them why the discrepancy and lack of communication after thousands of orders and and many confused owners?

Please help me understand what I'm missing.

The P85D was never claimed to be more efficient than the P85+. The website showed 285 miles range at 65mph for the S85 and 285 miles range (later 275 miles range) at 65mph for the P85D. There wasn't a comparable @65mph number for the P85+. Those who compared 285 @ 65mph to 265 EPA and thought it was a bigger number got confused.
 
OTOH, the Monroney sticker on the P85D says MPGe of 94 highway compared to 90 MPGe for the S85. That means Tesla did an EPA test using the same hardware that P85D owners have and some version of the software that achieves better highway MPGe. This is not a marketing number like the above ones but a test conducted under rigid rules, with the results submitted to the government.

I wouldn't email that to Jerome. Don't be accusatory and don't put him on defense. That doesn't seem very professional or courteous, just my opinion.

I'm not the one writing to Jerome this time, but if I were, I think it would be possible to ask him in a completely courteous and professional way about the MPGe comparison figures, and whether or not we'll be seeing that increased highway range in the P85D, as we would expect to.
 
I'm confused. Everyone from Elon down to the multiple sales people I have been talking about 285 miles per charge, being more efficient than the P85, up until recently. On that basis, *many* owners took the incremental $40K hit to upgrade from a P85+.

And you think it's unprofessional to ask them why the discrepancy and lack of communication after thousands of orders and and many confused owners?

Please help me understand what I'm missing.

You speak only for yourself, not "many confused owners" and "thousands of orders". You only represent yourself, you do not represent the Tesla community. The "many" owners who took a $40k hit to buy the P85D presumably did so for the performance, not because the P85D offered greater range than the P85/+. I have yet to see a single person state that they purchased the P85D because of its greater range. If you did, ok then, just speak for yourself.

You attract more bees with honey than with vinegar. If you are looking for an answer to a question, I find that it's not usually a good approach to fly into the room with guns blazing and with the presumption that Tesla did something wrong. Just ask your question. Elon never said the P85D specifically would be more efficient or even as efficient as a P85. I don't know where you got that from. Elon said that dual drive is inherently more efficient and will result in comparable range when the motors are optimized, which is apparently what they are in the process of doing now via software. That's the take-away that I remember getting from his statements at the D launch.

I just don't think striking a negative tone is appropriate. That's all. I have had many great communications with Jerome. He is a friend and ally of the ownership community, not an enemy. He steps in to help when there are problems and always makes things right. You reap what you sow.
 
I'm simple and it seems rather obvious to me. I know what 40K miles of average W-Hr/mile looks like on my cars. I could easily drive the PD for two days and know exactly where I stand - city and highway. If I can do it, Tesla can.

We all know how special the PD is so there is no need to over hype it. In fact, there is every reason in the world to under hype it. Given that the car is revolutionary on performance alone Tesla only exposes itself to negative sentiment and press if it does not do exactly what they say it will do on day one with respect to range. Given what was advertised, I expect my PD to do slightly worse than my P+ in the city and slightly better on the highway. If this is not the case (highway), there really is no excuse given Tesla knew before they shipped. Not saying so opens the company up to a whole bunch of criticism significantly negating the positives of the PD and all the press that came with the car.

I very much agree with lolachampcar. No reason to hype. The product is outstanding, so let it be what it is, hype sets you up for criticism and some disappointment with at least some consumers. (Of course, maybe the stress of wondering how a product will be received when you have responsibility for it's success makes this more difficult to see, and a bit of hype becomes tempting).

Just like the original ~lease program, it's turned out that hype is not helping here (with the lease they had an over-the-top savings calculator and presented their choice to peg the car's 3 year resale value to the Mercedes S class as a high standard when it was a low one). Elon repeatedly says one of the two keys he sees to business success is seeking honest feedback from people you trust have your best interests in mind (including what's not working well). Because of this, they dropped the hype from their presentation of the lease program and improved their buyback offer.

I don't think Tesla committed fraud by any means with the "D' announcement (and I don't know of any instance of them explicitly stating comparisons between the P85 and the P85D). In fact, I think it was less of a case of hype than the leasing announcement and in many respects they do a great job in being fair and transparent (i.e. breaking with the rest of the entire auto industry in their fair and transparent pricing of their vehicles in all countries). That said, I think they presented the "D" in a way that left room for misleading implications even as their statements very likely were all technically truthful (as I detailed earlier).
 
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As @breser has pointed out, P85 (and P85+) numbers have never been submitted to the EPA. Since they make up less than 1/3 of the cars delivered, their Monroney stickers carry the numbers from the test conducted for the S85.

This is the first I've heard of this. I'm pretty sure the P85 EPA sticker reflects an actual EPA test done by Tesla. If not, can you point to a source for this information or an EPA guideline that would exempt the P85/+ from EPA testing based upon number of units delivered? I just don't believe this, sorry.
 
if any of you don't like your P85D let me know and I will buy it for $40K Less.

We have some hyper OCD people that really don't understand the the EPA changes their rating criteria on a whim. If you are not comfortable being an early adopter - let other people who understand product development and incremental improvement be the beta testers and then wait to see if you are OK with reviews.

Frankly I dont trust any of the EPA ratings - none have every been anywhere near what the potential of the car could be if driven with care. For example EPA said my Diesel Golf would only get 40 MPG, I could easily get 52 MPG on the highway driving it like i stole it. On the other hand my Ford Fusion Hybrid was rated at over 41 MPG, and I can never get it over 36 unless I drove it to be rear ended. (suspect EPA doesn't want us driving diesels so their test procedures were tweaked to benefit the hybrid).

I'm not confused. 2 motors, more weight, more moving parts, 70% more horsepower and you expect it to be more efficient than the S/P85. I'm not an engineer, but this makes no sense to me...
 
You speak only for yourself, not "many confused owners" and "thousands of orders". You only represent yourself, you do not represent the Tesla community. The "many" owners who took a $40k hit to buy the P85D presumably did so for the performance, not because the P85D offered greater range than the P85/+. I have yet to see a single person state that they purchased the P85D because of its greater range. If you did, ok then, just speak for yourself.

You attract more bees with honey than with vinegar. If you are looking for an answer to a question, I find that it's not usually a good approach to fly into the room with guns blazing and with the presumption that Tesla did something wrong. Just ask your question. Elon never said the P85D specifically would be more efficient or even as efficient as a P85. I don't know where you got that from. Elon said that dual drive is inherently more efficient and will result in comparable range when the motors are optimized, which is apparently what they are in the process of doing now via software. That's the take-away that I remember getting from his statements at the D launch.

I just don't think striking a negative tone is appropriate. That's all. I have had many great communications with Jerome. He is a friend and ally of the ownership community, not an enemy. He steps in to help when there are problems and always makes things right. You reap what you sow.

Would highly recommend you spend some time in this thread and others and you will find that MANY owners also expected greater range than their P85, based on what was marketed by Tesla at the time. I agree that performance is likely the primary consideration for most buyers but at the time but that doesn't give Tesla carte blanche to change something fundamental to the value prop of the P85D without engaging in a conversation with owners. Again, spend some time across a few threads in this forum and you'll find owners who are very surprised that range is actually less than their P85. Of course many of these owners still love the car and appreciate the outstanding performance.

I agree that you attract more bees with honey than vinegar. I've helped build/sell two tech companies for over $1.5B combined so I know a thing or two about how to conduct business and influence others :) But thank you for the tip :)

And in that context, I don't think there is anything accusatory in my tone. I'm simply asking questions. I've also had many exchanges with Jerome and have found him to be pleasant and very responsive. But that doesn't mean I won't hold him and Tesla accountable when I'm committing to $250K of Tesla product in a period of 12 months. Tesla reaps the rewards from many owners who made a very fast decision to place an order the night of the announcement because they love the product and brand so much, so I think it's fair they bear responsibility when things go different than expected.
 
I know it is a nit, but I don't remember Tesla saying the P85D would have more range. IIRC the numbers on the website (at a constant 65 mph) were:

S85D 295
S85 285
P85D 275

You somehow gave the S85 20 extra miles range. The old numbers were

S60 208 miles range 5.9 sec 0-60 120 mph
S85 265 miles range 5.4 sec 0-60 125 mph
S85D 295 miles range 5.2 sec 0-60 155 mph
P85D 275 miles range 3.2 sec 0-60 155 mph
 
You're saying that expecting to get what you thought you were paying for is a sign of imperfection? Sounds like a sign of rationalism to me.


Ahh the difference between people who get how reality works, and a litigious minded "consumer"

i.e.

"Why didn't I get what I paid for, the world owes me something since I have all these dollars, and you better give it to me now"

vs

"We know how the forces of nature work, we're doing everything we can to make something that exploits it, and it is an inherently iterative process"

The latter statement should make everyone hate standard car companies. Because you get this complicated thing with software on it, and you know how terribly they did something and it can be better, but it never ever will be, because they suck. i.e. why is my almost new BMW so stupid? Why does it need a software tool based on windows 95 that barely works to tell it has a new 12V battery in it otherwise it will explode? Why doesn't it ****ing know by itself? It will never ever change, even though it's a few lines of code to make it work *right*. But I'm going to hate on Tesla because software version 5.8.5.4.9 was imperfect, and I just don't want to wait for it to be fixed.
 
As Lola/Bill was hinting at, what really matters is the effective range for a given real world driving pattern. Not sure I recall any P85/P85+ folks reporting less than about 320 Wh/mile over on the "Lifetime Average Wh/mi" thread over several thousand miles of mixed driving. That converted to range based on a roughly 80 kWh usable capacity on a full charge would amount to no more than 250 miles of range. Now, we didn't drive our PD much before going on vacation, but, are folks doing far worse than 320 Wh/mile with their PDs?!
 
If the P85 was tested or the P85+, it would have shown a lower range than the S85 just for the tires. Tesla lumped them all together (as I'm sure they are allowed to) even when the + came out.

So the P models were probably never tested - due to the 1/3 rule.

That is educated conjecture but I fail to see an explanation of how the P's were tested. Since Ps were mostly 21's, there clearly would be a difference. Unless you believe that the initial range was an average of S85 and P85.
 
You somehow gave the S85 20 extra miles range. The old numbers were

S60 208 miles range 5.9 sec 0-60 120 mph
S85 265 miles range 5.4 sec 0-60 125 mph
S85D 295 miles range 5.2 sec 0-60 155 mph
P85D 275 miles range 3.2 sec 0-60 155 mph
as shown in my link a few posts ago P85D was indeed listed as 285 after a few weeks up from the initial 275.
 
Would highly recommend you spend some time in this thread and others and you will find that MANY owners also expected greater range than their P85, based on what was marketed by Tesla at the time. I agree that performance is likely the primary consideration for most buyers but at the time but that doesn't give Tesla carte blanche to change something fundamental to the value prop of the P85D without engaging in a conversation with owners. Again, spend some time across a few threads in this forum and you'll find owners who are very surprised that range is actually less than their P85. Of course many of these owners still love the car and appreciate the outstanding performance.

I agree that you attract more bees with honey than vinegar. I've helped build/sell two tech companies for over $1.5B combined so I know a thing or two about how to conduct business and influence others :) But thank you for the tip :)

And in that context, I don't think there is anything accusatory in my tone. I'm simply asking questions. I've also had many exchanges with Jerome and have found him to be pleasant and very responsive. But that doesn't mean I won't hold him and Tesla accountable when I'm committing to $250K of Tesla product in a period of 12 months. Tesla reaps the rewards from many owners who made a very fast decision to place an order the night of the announcement because they love the product and brand so much, so I think it's fair they bear responsibility when things go different than expected.

Okay. I was just making a suggestion. You clearly feel wronged and that's your right. You've built and sold two tech companies worth over $1.5B, congratulations on that. Taking a $40k loss on the purchase of a P85D would surely represent nothing more than a rounding error in your checking account. I'm trying to focus on the positive. :)

- - - Updated - - -

As Lola/Bill was hinting at, what really matters is the effective range for a given real world driving pattern. Not sure I recall any P85/P85+ folks reporting less than about 320 Wh/mile over on the "Lifetime Average Wh/mi" thread over several thousand miles of mixed driving. That converted to range based on a roughly 80 kWh usable capacity on a full charge would amount to no more than 250 miles of range. Now, we didn't drive our PD much before going on vacation, but, are folks doing far worse than 320 Wh/mile with their PDs?!

Lifetime average of my P85 = 295 Wh/mi. It was 292 Wh/mi a month ago before I drove spiritedly during a 1,500 mile road trip.
 
Okay. I was just making a suggestion. You clearly feel wronged and that's your right. You've built and sold two tech companies worth over $1.5B, congratulations on that. Taking a $40k loss on the purchase of a P85D would surely represent nothing more than a rounding error in your checking account. I'm trying to focus on the positive. :)

'Helped build' :) but yes it's been rewarding in many ways. And I appreciate you helping me look at the bright side and also the suggestion, just trying to explain my side of things. And yes I'm fine to take the loss but just want some answers :)
 
As Lola/Bill was hinting at, what really matters is the effective range for a given real world driving pattern. Not sure I recall any P85/P85+ folks reporting less than about 320 Wh/mile over on the "Lifetime Average Wh/mi" thread over several thousand miles of mixed driving. That converted to range based on a roughly 80 kWh usable capacity on a full charge would amount to no more than 250 miles of range. Now, we didn't drive our PD much before going on vacation, but, are folks doing far worse than 320 Wh/mile with their PDs?!
I think wk057 and others are seeing numbers around 380. So a significant decrease in range.