dennis
Model S Plaid
I don't see the point of getting our knickers tied in a knot over this issue. The CEO has already said that the software that will enable comparable range is not in the hands of the current owners of P85D's.
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I don't see the point of getting our knickers tied in a knot over this issue. The CEO has already said that the software that will enable comparable range is not in the hands of the current owners of P85D's.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
No offense taken. It's just that it's the only controlled data I've seen so far. By all means, please show me more!
In fairness. The CEO said it, and then un-said it [deleted the tweets].
I am stunned at this point. I was asking myself last night if all of the information that was available up to that point had been made available on the launch date if I would have ordered (seats, range, etc) -- and I probably would have.
With the pulling of that tweet, I honestly would not be placing an order today. And it's a shame, because the car is lots of fun to drive.
I'm trying to determine what to make of the retracted/deleted tweet as well. I'm scheduled for a P85D delivery in two days, and frankly, with now apparently no promise
of range improvement for the P85Ds on the road from Tesla, I'm thinking about canceling. With a reasonable belief that a future s/w fix is coming, I'd take delivery eagerly,
but without even a vague "due bill" item like "Next Gen seats to be delivered as soon as practical" I have serious doubts.
What does it all mean ?? Is a fix coming or have they learned more than s/w will need to change ??
of range improvement for the P85Ds on the road from Tesla, I'm thinking about canceling. With a reasonable belief that a future s/w fix is coming, I'd take delivery eagerly,
but without even a vague "due bill" item like "Next Gen seats to be delivered as soon as practical" I have serious doubts.
What does it all mean ?? Is a fix coming or have they learned more than s/w will need to change ??
dennis
Model S Plaid
IMO the most likely reason for pulling the tweets is that they are "forward looking statements" in SEC parlance and were only disseminated on Elon's Twitter feed. They also pulled the one about the S eventually getting a longer range battery. His recent forward looking statements that are left on Twitter (Roadster upgrade, battery swap beta) have corresponding blog posts on the official TM site.
The reason I'm confident that we will [eventually] get improved P85D range over what owners are currently seeing is that Tesla submitted P85D numbers to the EPA that show better highway MPGe than the S85. Those tests are rigorously defined and must be performed on a dynamometer. The open question is why Tesla was not able to ship that firmware with the production cars and how long it will take before it is released.
I take delivery of my P85D in 2 days as well, and I am of the same opinion as you are. Maybe I am just naive - but I have to believe that a fix will be forthcoming. I have actually been wondering lately if the software update that will solve this range problem might actually be bundled and released at the same time as the autopilot software? The reason for thinking this is that during the D event, the demo cars had functional autopilot software and NORMAL driving mode; therefore it is possible that this was the same "test" version of the software that was used for the EPA testing? If so, then in my mind it's not a huge jump to think that the updates might get released together.
In the end, this is all conjecture on my part, and the go/no go decision is a personal choice. But as someone new to the Tesla family, I am going to make a leap of faith and go for it. By everything I can tell, it's still an awesome car, and there will always be a reason to wait.
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My bet is that those HW 94mpg were obtained in "normal mode" the is not available in current FW.
My second bet is about why it is absent.
Somebody (from tesla) somewhere said they spent considerable amount of work on reducing vibrations generated by both motors working together. I'd guess this work is still not complete i.e. they are still improving normal mode to not produce noise, vibrations, jerks etc. Or to put it simply - normal mode is not refined enough yet for a $120k car.
It might not be simple to cut the power from a motor or enable power without inducing a jerk to the car. This could be a big bigger problem when dis/enabling is going on all the time while driving.
a) normal mode: cut off the power from motor when the other has considerable higher efficiency at given speed and power demand
b) sport mode: both motors work all the time, cap the total power going out of the battery at p85 level
c) insane mode: both motors work all the time, allow both inverters to draw their max power
Well, he then untweeted that and other tweets that expressed certainty about future stuff.
Tesla Unfinished Task List:
CHAdeMO adapter
Dual Motor
Driver Assistance/AutoPilot
Model X
Tesla has a bit of a record ...
I thought I had previously seen a screen shot of the NORMAL/SPORT/INSANE mode selector, but after considerable searching of the web, I can't find anything. My statement was really from the combination of what was said and shown at the D Event; specifically, Elon's quotes about their being a NORMAL mode and of course the video demonstrations showing the functioning auto-pilot.
Vger
Active Member
As has been pointed out, hammering on this will only encourage Tesla to stop talking about anything that is planned, in development, or slated for improvement. Is that what we really want?
No one in the history of humankind has ever done what Tesla has done, starting from zero in 10 years, and enduring the worst recession since the depression. All that while the CEO was also moonlighting as the first successful private rocket company CEO in history.
Criticism and holding Tesla feet to the warm glow of the fire is one thing, but expecting perfection from an incredibly bold collection of human beings is quite another.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
I know, it's easy to focus on these things but it's also worth noting what Tesla has finished:
An electric sedan that can go over 200 miles
DC rapid chargers that can charge at 120kW
AWD in an electric car
5 star car test ratings in every category
Over-the-air updates
To me at least, the unfinished list seems so insignificant in comparison. I want those things, don't get me wrong, and I'd love more clarity on what's up with them, but I can wait.
I have faith in Tesla given the record of what they have accomplished.
I largely agree with this.
While certainly no person or organization is perfect, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt more to those who demonstrate a desire to do the right thing. In my opinion Tesla has done that on a number of occasions.
They give indication of wanting to work along with customers, and "clue them in" on exciting developments in-process. While communication could use some improvement in some areas, remind yourself you get NO SUCH COMMUNICATION from the folks in charge of other like companies.
Thus, if we'd like change, I believe that constructive dialog rather than merciless hammering[1] is the best way to effect said change without making this all so much of a headache for Tesla that they just stop sharing...
[1] aimed at no one in particular, but at a common sentiment in general
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I agree that we should not be "hammering" Tesla too much, and that we should, to some extent, trust that they plan to do the right thing. I know I do.
That being said, I want to point out that there is a difference between complaining about dates they don't meet for updates, or things they tell us are coming and then they don't deliver on and features that they sell cars based on that are then not in those cars at time of delivery. I completely agree that if we continue to brow beat Tesla every time they miss a date for some new feature, or change their plans about something new that they announced that we all wanted they may stop communicating their plans concerning these things. But that's not what most of this discussion is about. This is something entirely different. This is Tesla selling us cars that were to have a given range and when the cars don't have this range at delivery, Tesla not providing an explanation. So in my opinion, for whatever that may be worth, I feel like in this situation some brow beating and feet-to-the-fire-holding is appropriate. Not necessarily demanding that the cars do something they may not yet be able to do, but rather just to get information on what the plans are. We deserve at least that.
Are the people on this thread who think we are 'hammering' Tesla too hard for merely asking them to deliver a specific feature that they marketed to us when we placed orders, also people who have actually placed P85D orders? Or just folks sitting on the sidelines?
I'd be curious to hear from people who have actually ordered a P85D and would not care at all if Tesla didn't come close to the efficiency numbers they claimed when they took thousands of orders. I bet it's few and far between.
I'd be curious to hear from people who have actually ordered a P85D and would not care at all if Tesla didn't come close to the efficiency numbers they claimed when they took thousands of orders. I bet it's few and far between.
So after a lot of thinking ... I agree with a lot of what has been said on the last few posts.
Tesla has a list of unfinished promises (I am listing only the ones I personally care about): P85D Range, P85D Next Gen seats, Chademo, Autopilot (Though this one was specifically stated that there would be a multiple month delay at time of order).
On the other hand, the P85D I have taken delivery of is quite an amazing car:
* It has the best stock stereo of any car I have ever owned, all of which have had the upgraded stereos, including Porsche Panamera, Porsche 911, BMW M3. There were not official changes here, but I know that the P85+ I test drove did not sound this good.
* The acceleration is well above Porsche Panamera Turbo S.
* The fit and finish is MOSTLY as good as a Porsche now -- some key things are missing (No cubbies for storage in the doors or armrest, no center console, terrible cupholder design), and there are some perplexing deficiencies in QA (I had overspray on my car -- I fixed this myself, as well as a crease in my front bumper and glue stains on my dash -- these two Tesla promised to fix). I am almost certain the damage to the front bumper occurred from shipping, and I am still amazed that Tesla ships $130k cars on open containers without even wrapping most of them the way they do.
* The car is sexy. I've already generated a crowd a few times by merely parking my car. (Red/Grey 21's, red brakes, carbon spoiler -- definitely the most attention grabbing config).
* Other than the defects noted above, the paint is stunning -- better than the red paint currently offered by Porsche.
So, am I annoyed about the range -- yes! Did Tesla screw up by promising 285 miles @ 65mph (which is impossible) and 242 miles EPA (which also seems impossible even at 65mph, forget mixed driving), and not delivering it with the standard firmware? YES!
I hope they fix it, and I am really annoyed that Tesla would shoot themselves in the foot by making it so easy for their detractors to criticize them -- but for me, I am ultimately very happy I took delivery -- the car is well worth the $135k price tag.
I still maintain that Tesla's biggest problem is communication, and "little things". These "little things" tend to be amplified hugely by the communication problems, and turn them into big things. The range issue is a "medium sized thing", and becomes amplified to a huge issue -- again because of communication.
The correct solution is not to reduce communication, but to stop miscommunication -- In this particular instance, Tesla would have been much better served to say there was a pending "normal" mode which would have improved range, but that it may take (weeks? months?) to be released. For some people, the range issue is going to make the car unusable. For me, it's a (fairly large) inconvenience, but the positives outweigh the negatives.
I, for one, am going to try and put some conscious effort into being as positive as I can be in future posts about this issue.
Agree, well said. Am trying to stick to this same outlook. I think the number of people on here that think we are crazy for being disappointed in one aspect of Tesla's marketing/communication is just frustrating though . I love Tesla, believe in the product, but have never committed to $250K of any company's product in a period of 12 months, and so in that context have a high bar for them delivering what they say or AT LEAST communicating effectively. Their communication lately has been a goat rodeo.
Ok, deep breath, ready for delivery on Wed AM
scottf200
Well-Known Member
Agree, well said. Am trying to stick to this same outlook. I think the number of people on here that think we are crazy for being disappointed in one aspect of Tesla's marketing/communication is just frustrating though . I love Tesla, believe in the product, but have never committed to $250K of any company's product in a period of 12 months, and so in that context have a high bar for them delivering what they say or AT LEAST communicating effectively. Their communication lately has been a goat rodeo.
Ok, deep breath, ready for delivery on Wed AM
A little tongue in cheek perspective tho...
Why don't you just wait until they fix it and not take delivery. Until then you can complain to every reporting that will listen to you to see if you can generate some bad press until you are satisfied.
Re: $250K of any company's product in a period of 12 months
Be sure to include this in your interview with all the reporters so they can print it and get some sympathy from the readers.
And given those tongue in cheek comments I am thankful for the 85D/P85D early adopters (even if they wait a month or two for it to be perfect) to get much of this worked out for the Model X I'm in queue for.
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I remember reading/hearing the same thing and I really think the above is correct. I've been driving a P85D since 12/24 and comparing it to my P85. When driving around town, there does appear to be a slight vibration in the steering wheel that to me feels like the two motors are fighting each other (i.e. hurting efficiency). Almost like something is slightly out of sync. It doesn't happen at all speeds, but when going from 0 to about 40 at a leisurely pace, I feel it.
They have made incredible improvements to the fit, finish and comfort since my car was made (vin 7473). I'm sure they will get this right.
I should have emphasized the key word of my post:
Me said:
That's the key problem: when you promise stuff, and then sell products based on those promises you have a legal problem. And for a car like the P85D, where you are claiming efficiency and not delivering it, the EPA is liable to get very, very upset and fine you lots of money.
The early salesmanship spiel from Elon Musk to get people to part with money, followed by a lack of interim communication as they struggle to deliver a real product is getting old. Customers really need to stop giving Tesla the benefit of the doubt and instead simply treat things as either not existing or existing. They have cash reserves. There is no CHAdeMO adapter, there is no AutoPilot and no driver assistance of value, there is no Model X and the P85D is significantly less efficient than the P85 was; they're in beta, in development, in maybe beta, and in development.
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