Elon Musk

[ohmman]

Sure, but if Bill Gates is shorting Tesla, he is clueless. And what I mean by clueless, is that Tesla's mission statement is to transition the world to sustainable energy. If you are betting against that, you aren't on board. Period.

RT

OK, well if we want to talk about this brand new topic, we can. I mean, yes, both topics involve Bill Gates but one of them is about Elon Musk tweeting childish things because he's hurt and the other is to what extent trading with individuals in the secondary market harms Tesla as a company. I would disagree on the face that believing a company is significantly overvalued has any bearing on whether you believe in or support their mission. And I would be happy to have a discussion about the effects of secondary market trading on the company as a whole, though I'd suggest we take that to PM since it's off topic for this thread.

 

[phil4791eng]

Certainly not compared to the methodology used at UCSD in the study.



A good barometer for working class people. U-Haul is skewed heavily toward the working class.

The majority of the population loss is due to affordability, which census data have shown to be predominately young families, mostly due to housing affordability.

None of these are good metrics, they're selective. The best way to view it is through taxable receipts, census data, housing demand and pricing, etc. - a nuanced and combined approach that isn't selecting for the outcome you want ahead of time. I understand the appeal of the argument but "millionaire flight" has been a myth for a very long time and has been disproven for a number of high tax states repeatedly.

How about the fact that California lost a Congressional House seat for the first time in history as a metric.

 

[mongo]

OK, well if we want to talk about this brand new topic, we can. I mean, yes, both topics involve Bill Gates but one of them is about Elon Musk tweeting childish things because he's hurt and the other is to what extent trading with individuals in the secondary market harms Tesla as a company. I would disagree on the face that believing a company is significantly overvalued has any bearing on whether you believe in or support their mission. And I would be happy to have a discussion about the effects of secondary market trading on the company as a whole, though I'd suggest we take that to PM since it's off topic for this thread.

Why do you say Elon is hurt?

Thinking a company is overvalued is separate from supporting their mission.
Taking actions that directly negatively impact such a company for the sole reason of making a profit is not supportive of the mission.

 

[mspohr]

How about the fact that California lost a Congressional House seat for the first time in history as a metric.

Other states gained population faster than California. i.e. Texas has had a lot of S. American and Asian immigrants.

 

[phil4791eng]

Other states gained population faster than California. i.e. Texas has had a lot of S. American and Asian immigrants.

Florida, Montana, North Carolina, and Texas all gained seats which are states being reported as to where Californians are fleeing too. I‘m just saying the congressional house seat changes are backing up the “fleeing reports” that preceded the announcement of congressional seat changes. Is it a coincidence that almost all of the states that lost seats are blue states whereas almost all of the ones that gained seats are red states? People are fleeing COVID mandates, high taxes, poor school systems, and high crime rates. All things that impact quality of life.

 

[RSpanner]

People are fleeing COVID mandates, high taxes, poor school systems, and high crime rates. All things that impact quality of life.

True, and they are bringing the same outlook and attitudes and expectations with them that caused the problems in the first place. They are not community minded generally, and are changing the areas they flee to. Here in Oregon, the old bumper sticker from years ago has more meaning than ever. "Don't Califorinicate Oregon". Details? Disregard for land use laws, bad driving habits without understanding laws...yes those are topical. The effects on the housing market have pushed those living here out with no relief in sight. Once a strong blue state is on the verge of going red...

 

[mspohr]

Florida, Montana, North Carolina, and Texas all gained seats which are states being reported as to where Californians are fleeing too. I‘m just saying the congressional house seat changes are backing up the “fleeing reports” that preceded the announcement of congressional seat changes. Is it a coincidence that almost all of the states that lost seats are blue states whereas almost all of the ones that gained seats are red states? People are fleeing COVID mandates, high taxes, poor school systems, and high crime rates. All things that impact quality of life.

Your attempt to ascribe motives is at odds with the facts:

People who move to California are different from those who move out. In general, those who move here are more likely to be working age, to be employed, and to earn high wages—and are less likely to be in poverty—than those who move away.

Those who move to California also tend to have higher education levels than those who move out—an especially important factor given the state’s strong need for college graduates. Notably, this gain in educated residents is concentrated among young college graduates (generally, adults in their 20s) looking for opportunities as they start their careers.

Also of note: people who move to California have higher incomes than those who move away. Some have argued that the opposite is taking place—that California’s relatively progressive and high personal income tax rates drive out higher-income residents. But the fact is that California has been losing lower- and middle-income residents to other states for some time while continuing to gain higher-income adults.

Who’s Leaving California—and Who’s Moving In?

The primary driver of California's population loss over the past few years has been residents moving to other states. We examine the latest demographic data for those moving out of and into our state and discuss factors that underlie these decisions.

www.ppic.org

So... lower income, less educated people leaving CA. Better educated, higher income people moving into CA. Win-win.

 

[RSpanner]

So... lower income, less educated people leaving CA. Better educated, higher income people moving into CA. Win-win.

I wonder what those lower income people did for a living?, and ..they have raised the home prices in Oregon %33 in the last year and over a $Million houses are not not uncommon. Locals are now pretty much priced out.

 

[ohmman]

Taking actions that directly negatively impact such a company for the sole reason of making a profit is not supportive of the mission.

Shorting in the secondary market does not directly negatively impact a company. It doesn’t directly impact the company at all, because it’s in the secondary. If there is any effect on the company, it’s a removed downstream effect at some derivative, and most of the work I’ve seen on this has shown that it has near zero impact.

 

[mspohr]

I wonder what those lower income people did for a living?, and ..they have raised the home prices in Oregon %33 in the last year and over a $Million houses are not not uncommon. Locals are now pretty much priced out.

This illustrates how California lower income people moving to Oregon improves Oregon. Since they have higher incomes than the locals, they will improve the Oregon economy. It's a win for California to get rid of low income people and a win for Oregon to welcome them. /s

 

[phil4791eng]

Your attempt to ascribe motives is at odds with the facts:

People who move to California are different from those who move out. In general, those who move here are more likely to be working age, to be employed, and to earn high wages—and are less likely to be in poverty—than those who move away.

Those who move to California also tend to have higher education levels than those who move out—an especially important factor given the state’s strong need for college graduates. Notably, this gain in educated residents is concentrated among young college graduates (generally, adults in their 20s) looking for opportunities as they start their careers.

Also of note: people who move to California have higher incomes than those who move away. Some have argued that the opposite is taking place—that California’s relatively progressive and high personal income tax rates drive out higher-income residents. But the fact is that California has been losing lower- and middle-income residents to other states for some time while continuing to gain higher-income adults.

Who’s Leaving California—and Who’s Moving In?

The primary driver of California's population loss over the past few years has been residents moving to other states. We examine the latest demographic data for those moving out of and into our state and discuss factors that underlie these decisions.

www.ppic.org

So... lower income, less educated people leaving CA. Better educated, higher income people moving into CA. Win-win.

What‘s the source of these statements and what year was the data from? California has one of the highest illiteracy rates in the country.

 

[mspohr]

What‘s the source of these statements and what year was the data from? California has one of the highest illiteracy rates in the country.

I put the link in the quote. It's from March 2022. RTFA

 

[SDRick]

Why is it that California, with all these better educated, higher income people moving in seems to have a deteriorating quality of life? The roads are terrible, Public schools and test scores almost at the bottom, laws are not being enforced, crime is up, homelessness rampant, city centers deteriorating yet the taxes are some of the highest in the land. Perhaps these better educated folks are not as smart as they think they are?

 

[phil4791eng]

I put the link in the quote. It's from March 2022. RTFA

I didn’t see any data source in that blog on education, just a data source on the tendency of lower income people to leave the state which makes complete sense, since the regulations and taxes in California make it hard for lower to middle income folks have a good way of life. Taxes, cost of regulations, and inflation hurt lower income folks the most.

 

[RSpanner]

This illustrates how California lower income people moving to Oregon improves Oregon. Since they have higher incomes than the locals, they will improve the Oregon economy. It's a win for California to get rid of low income people and a win for Oregon to welcome them. /s

Oregon's economy was doing fine. The values of the majority of Oregonians was and is to preserve the Natural areas that are left, to enjoy the great outdoors and to regulate, yes, regulate land use and expansion. This was written into the state's bylaws years ago. The newcomers would rather turn Oregon into a megalopolis. The lines are drawn and the next election here will determine the direction of this state. Your flourishing economy has a price. Many reject it.

 

[Brando]

Why is it that California, with all these better educated, higher income people moving in seems to have a deteriorating quality of life? The roads are terrible, Public schools and test scores almost at the bottom, laws are not being enforced, crime is up, homelessness rampant, city centers deteriorating yet the taxes are some of the highest in the land. Perhaps these better educated folks are not as smart as they think they are?

Politicians always seem to trend to more corruption.
Government bureaucrats always trend to increase employees. Each new employee means automatic pay increase for managers. Get the idea?
More people = more tax amounts collected. And yet tax rates continue to increase, right?

 

[Dave EV]

Imagine seeing this tweet from Elon 8 years ago. People would assume his account had been hacked. So goes the slow trajectory.

This is some middle-school nonsense. I sadly still stand by my assessment of Twitter.

What I think is funny about the tweet is that you could literally swap out Bill for Elon and make the same joke.

What I don't think is funny is that he is one of the most influential people in the world and insist on making mean-spirited jokes. Be better.

I suspect he acts this way in part because he was bullied as a kid. It's too bad that he doesn't see how he is perpetuating the cycle and that there are a lot of people who think this is OK.

 

[spacerfc]

Imagine seeing this tweet from Elon 8 years ago. People would assume his account had been hacked. So goes the slow trajectory.

This is some middle-school nonsense. I sadly still stand by my assessment of Twitter.

I don't know what this comment is supposed to say exactly, but it's not at all out of character for Elon Musk to attack someone who wronged him via twitter 8 years ago, he literally accused an Airforce officer of corruption on twitter in 2014: Elon Musk says he lost a multi-billion-dollar contract when SpaceX didn’t hire a public official

 

[spacerfc]

Also the amount of mental gymnastics here just to make Elon looks bad and Gates looks good is unbelievable:

Some people: Elon Musk is one of the most influential people in the world, he can't just tweet random mean spirited tweets since it has consequences.

The exact same people: Bill Gates is also one of the most influential people in the world, but his half a billion shorts against Tesla is completely inconsequential, it won't harm Tesla at all.

 

[spacerfc]

I don't know if this is mentioned before, but this conflict did not start yesterday, Elon Musk mentioned Gates' short position back in Feb 2021: Elon Musk believes Bill Gates had a big short position on Tesla (TSLA) and lost a lot of money (also lol that electrek of all people feel outraged about Gates' behavior, yet some people here act as if it's perfect natural and it's wrong for Musk to feel angry about it)

Given the timing it's very likely that Gates had this short position before the 2020 rise of Tesla stock price, which means two things:
1. Very likely he had this short position in 2019 or earlier, when Tesla is desperate for cash and short could materially hurt Tesla's ability to raise funding
2. Gates' short position must be losing big due to the rapid rise of stock price after 2020, yet he still didn't close it even today, so either he's really dumb or he really hates Tesla, this is some TSLAQ level of "dedication" here.

Given all these, I completely understand why Elon is angry about this situation. Worse is Gates wants him to donate money despite shorting his company, it's like saying "hey I don't think you should worth this much money, but while you have this money why don't you donate it to me?", that's like the worst possible donation pitch ever. And we didn't even start to discuss the climate angle here...