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I bet if you polled current COLLEGE students maybe 20% would know that the U.S.A. is a representative republic and not a democracy.

I suspect this whole tangent is going to end up in quarantine, but the US is a representative democratic republic. In a republic, the government is supposed to exist for the benefit of the people (though there are a lot of countries that have called themselves republics that fell short of that). In a representative democracy the people elect people to represent them and make laws. If the country is a republic too, those laws are supposed to benefit all people.

Before the first supreme court ruling about corporations being people, corporations had to prove that their existence benefited society in some way or they could be dissolved. Being a democratic republic, the majority is supposed to have a say in what happens, but they should work within a framework that gives and protects rights for all so the minority is not unduly harmed by the majority.

The compromises in the constitution that gives minority groups more power were compromises to get to the end document. The different regional cultures in the US have different motivations and different goals and they have been at odds with one another since colonial times.

When the country was founded the urban/rural split was very different from today. The urban/suburban population was about 5% of the country and it's more than 80% today. Over the last 10 years the parts of the country that grew are the urban and suburban areas and the rural areas all shrank. The census results were very clear.

When the rural population really was the majority everywhere, the constitutional provisions like the 2 senators for every state just gave the smaller rural states a bit more say vs the rural large states. But the differences between the smallest and largest states was nowhere near as large as today. In 1790 the ratio was about 12.5:1 between Virginia and Delaware. Today it's 68:1 and the larger states are much more urbanized than the smallest states. The drafters of the constitution assumed that any state that got too big would be broken into multiple states, and some states were split.

Because of the 3/5ths rule the South had more power before the Civil War and when they disenfranchised the African Americans after the war they had even more power because the non-voting black population was counted as full individuals.

Now that disproportionate power has shifted from the white South to all rural states dominating the more urban states via their influence in the Senate.

Equal protection for all is a very good thing and should be at the foundation of any healthy republic, but any form of democracy should have majority rule or the system begins to break down as it's doing now. Minority rule eats at the fabric of society and unravels it over time.
 
I suspect this whole tangent is going to end up in quarantine, but the US is a representative democratic republic. In a republic, the government is supposed to exist for the benefit of the people (though there are a lot of countries that have called themselves republics that fell short of that). In a representative democracy the people elect people to represent them and make laws. If the country is a republic too, those laws are supposed to benefit all people.

Before the first supreme court ruling about corporations being people, corporations had to prove that their existence benefited society in some way or they could be dissolved. Being a democratic republic, the majority is supposed to have a say in what happens, but they should work within a framework that gives and protects rights for all so the minority is not unduly harmed by the majority.

The compromises in the constitution that gives minority groups more power were compromises to get to the end document. The different regional cultures in the US have different motivations and different goals and they have been at odds with one another since colonial times.

When the country was founded the urban/rural split was very different from today. The urban/suburban population was about 5% of the country and it's more than 80% today. Over the last 10 years the parts of the country that grew are the urban and suburban areas and the rural areas all shrank. The census results were very clear.

When the rural population really was the majority everywhere, the constitutional provisions like the 2 senators for every state just gave the smaller rural states a bit more say vs the rural large states. But the differences between the smallest and largest states was nowhere near as large as today. In 1790 the ratio was about 12.5:1 between Virginia and Delaware. Today it's 68:1 and the larger states are much more urbanized than the smallest states. The drafters of the constitution assumed that any state that got too big would be broken into multiple states, and some states were split.

Because of the 3/5ths rule the South had more power before the Civil War and when they disenfranchised the African Americans after the war they had even more power because the non-voting black population was counted as full individuals.

Now that disproportionate power has shifted from the white South to all rural states dominating the more urban states via their influence in the Senate.

Equal protection for all is a very good thing and should be at the foundation of any healthy republic, but any form of democracy should have majority rule or the system begins to break down as it's doing now. Minority rule eats at the fabric of society and unravels it over time.
Yes, this is going off on a tangent. My point was that a lot of the people angriest about the system don't likely understand how the system works. Small states do get disproportionate power in the senate, rural areas get disproportionate power too. Places like D.C. and Puerto Rico don't get representation at all. The census also counts non-citizens which gives extra representation to areas that house people who aren't in the country legally. There are lots of quirks that you would expect people that have been in school for the last 15 years to understand. These things could of course be changed, if there was ever any broad consensus to do so, but there doesn't seem to be.

But this really has nothing to do with Elon so I will move on.
 
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Like I posted, I admire his accomplishments. However, I have a problem with his views which lead me to question his character. There is a certain amount of responsibility that comes with celebrity status. His opinions hold more weight with the world audience than yours or mine. He got sued because he called someone a 'pedo guy' over a public spat. He deleted a couple tweets which actually helped him in the case. Apparently, deleting them meant he wasn't serious according to his lawyer.

IMO, he was just being a bully and got away with it because of who he was. Does it mean he's a bad guy? Probably not, we all make mistakes, but he should have owned up to it rather than hide behind his lawyers. The damage was done. Deleting the tweets really didn't matter. It's a case worth reading about to get better context.
I'm pretty much in agreement with your opinions. The only part I wonder about is how much he's being a bully. I think he is too quick to say things without thinking about it first, plus his lack of social skills get him in trouble because he lacks a developed sense of empathy. I get the idea he wants to be popular so hates to admit if he's wrong. Maybe he wasn't very popular when he was growing up or something. But whatever the reasons, I try not to judge people too harshly when I've never met them and talked to them. I form opinions, but I'm a true skeptic. I don't believe everything I hear, see, or think.
 
How can you maintain that policy when the head of tesla has just jumped headfirst into politics? For the climate change denial party no less? You're going to end up coming across as elon's propaganda arm. This is the ELON thread after all. To say we can't discuss the most recent news ABOUT ELON seems... cultish.
You're a bit confused. This forum is not connected to or controlled by Tesla the corporation. Nor does this forum have any control over Elon Musk (does anyone?). So the policy of TMC is not controlled by his actions.

And obviously, there is no ban on discussion about ELON in an ELON thread; to think that is to close your mind to a whole lot of posts about ELON.
 
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You're a bit confused. This forum is not connected to or controlled by Tesla the corporation. Nor does this forum have any control over Elon Musk (does anyone?). So the policy of TMC is not controlled by his actions.

And obviously, there is no ban on discussion about ELON in an ELON thread; to think that is to close your mind to a whole lot of posts about ELON.

Yeah, well the mods deleted my post about Elon, in an Elon thread, so you are wrong about that. Of course you can't see the posts that are deleted, which is why you think they aren't using a heavy hand. My comments were completely factual, not inflammatory, regarding the cave incident. That event happened, it has bearing on a thread about Elon himself. I'm sure this will be deleted too. I won't be posting much anymore.
 
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I'm pretty much in agreement with your opinions. The only part I wonder about is how much he's being a bully. I think he is too quick to say things without thinking about it first, plus his lack of social skills get him in trouble because he lacks a developed sense of empathy. I get the idea he wants to be popular so hates to admit if he's wrong. Maybe he wasn't very popular when he was growing up or something. But whatever the reasons, I try not to judge people too harshly when I've never met them and talked to them. I form opinions, but I'm a true skeptic. I don't believe everything I hear, see, or think.
I think it's a little of everything you mentioned. One thing seems certain, he really hates criticism and lashes out as a result. Some of what he says seem juvenile, however, he can go overboard.
 
Yeah, well the mods deleted my post about Elon, in an Elon thread, so you are wrong about that.
FYI, I almost always move posts to either Politics - Quarantine Thread or Snippiness 2.0 for the reason you mention. I prefer transparency in moderation and like to give members the opportunity to capture some of their original sentiment. I do not believe I have moderated any of your posts from this thread, and see nothing that I've deleted.

I am not the only mod at TMC so I am just speaking for myself.
 
I can't speculate on what is going on with him, but I'm tired of defending him. He's taken the last train to kookytown, and it's terribly disheartening. He has changed and it is not good for all the things that Tesla has accomplished.
I see a few downvotes, but I'm not really seeing any way that I'm wrong. All you need to do is go back about 5 years and see how he conducted himself and the way he spoke in public and online.
 
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Success changes most. Great success combined with great wealth changes everyone.
Elon Musk has been a success since his 20s. He was paid $22 million in 1999. at the age of 27
He became a billionaire about 10 years ago.

He's been rich for more years of his adult life than not.
He seems to have the same work ethic he had in his 20s.
He still believes in Tesla, in combating climate change, and in making the world a better place
He still was instrumental in Tesla and Tesla would no way be where they are ( if it would even still exist at all) without him.

I think what's changed is people that assumed he had the same political opinions as they do found out he doesn't.
Says way more about people that dislike him now than it does about Musk.
 
I see a few downvotes, but I'm not really seeing any way that I'm wrong. All you need to do is go back about 5 years and see how he conducted himself and the way he spoke in public and online.
Your words mean something to you such as: kookytown. They may mean something else to someone else. You may not be wrong with your vocab, but to others they don't ring true from their perspective. Some people are upset elon is moving more to the right from the left. Others are glad. Not sure anyone is right or wrong, it is mostly a matter of their personal preferences of how government and people should conduct themselves.
 
Elon Musk has been a success since his 20s. He was paid $22 million in 1999. at the age of 27
He became a billionaire about 10 years ago.

He's been rich for more years of his adult life than not.
He seems to have the same work ethic he had in his 20s.
He still believes in Tesla, in combating climate change, and in making the world a better place
He still was instrumental in Tesla and Tesla would no way be where they are ( if it would even still exist at all) without him.

I think what's changed is people that assumed he had the same political opinions as they do found out he doesn't.
Says way more about people that dislike him now than it does about Musk.

No Tesla wouldn’t be here without the owners who accept all the flaws that come with the car. It’s not Elon, it’s the owners.
 
One could also say that without Elon there wouldn't Tesla owners.
Perhaps unpopular opinion, but I think Tesla would have done fine without Elon. The real tesla founders, Martin Eberhard and team, may have not had initial success which is common with startups, but with continued evolution, bankrupt and funding rounds there would have been success. Perhaps bought by Google along the way.
 
Your words mean something to you such as: kookytown. They may mean something else to someone else. You may not be wrong with your vocab, but to others they don't ring true from their perspective. Some people are upset elon is moving more to the right from the left. Others are glad. Not sure anyone is right or wrong, it is mostly a matter of their personal preferences of how government and people should conduct themselves.
Fair enough. "kookytown" might not be the best word to use. My point is not his political leanings but how he's behaving divisively about it in general. A lot of liberals and conservatives have bought his cars and love them. Why you would start calling them names and openly trolling them on social media is just, unseemly for any serious businessman.
He used to be more inspirational and less divisive. That's objectively factual and my main point.
 
... Why you would start calling them names and openly trolling them on social media is just, unseemly for any serious businessman. ...
Not familiar with Elon's latest antics but I do remember plenty of prior antics such as 'pedo guy'. Some people who have worked at Tesla have described Elon as often irate and angry. Seems par for the course.
 
Just posting this -- brings up some interesting points:

The CEO’s mythmaking often obscures an uglier truth. The public is finally reckoning with it.​

On a beautiful day in May 2015, I drove the 13 hours from my home in Portland, Oregon, to Harris Ranch, California, halfway between San Francisco and Los Angeles. At the time, Tesla was touting a battery-swap station that could send Tesla drivers on their way in a fully powered vehicle in less than the time it takes to fill up a car with gas. Overtaken by curiosity, I had decided to spend a long Memorial Day weekend in California’s Central Valley to see if Elon Musk’s latest bit of dream weaving could stand up to reality.

There, amid the pervasive stench of cow droppings from a nearby feedlot, I discovered that Tesla’s battery swap station was not in fact being made available to owners who regularly drove between California’s two largest cities. Instead, the company was running diesel generators to power additional Superchargers (the kind that take 30 to 60 minutes to recharge a battery) to handle the holiday rush, their exhaust mingling with the unmistakable smell of bullshit.

That one decision to go and find the truth underlying Elon Musk’s promises, rather than just take his word for it, changed my life in ways I never could have anticipated. Now, seven long and often lonely years later, the world seems to be understanding what I learned from the experience: Once you stop taking Musk at his word, his heroic popular image evaporates and a far darker reality begins to reveal itself.

Finding those diesel-powered Superchargers called into question the two pillars of Tesla’s image: an environmental mission and technological leadership. This led me to start digging, and I found that Tesla was getting nearly double the California Zero Emission Vehicle credits for every car it sold thanks to its Potemkin swap station, and that its claimed carbon impact didn’t reflect the actual energy mix used by its Superchargers.

This duplicity on Tesla’s part, I reasoned, couldn’t be a mere accident. To borrow the folksy saying favored by Warren Buffett: There is never just one cockroach. So I began digging into every aspect of Tesla’s business, and in the years that followed my investigations turned up no shortage of cockroaches.

...
 
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