So what? Did he say this is the plan he will be proposing? No. He just puts it to a vote, there's zero evidence he even proposed this to Ukrainian authority. The finer points of his plan doesn't matter one bit, since he won't be doing the negotiations anyway. If there is going to be a negotiated peace, it'll be done by diplomats and politicians, nobody is going to base the peace plan on his tweets. The entire point of the tweet is not debating the fine point of which territory belonging to whom, the point is to get people thinking about a negotiated peace instead of keep escalating the war. And in peace negotiations there is going to be compromises, Cuban Missile Crisis didn't end without US giving up something to the Soviet.
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Elon Musk
- Thread starter graham
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mspohr
Well-Known Member
So, now that many people realize how stupid Elon's proposal is, you're saying it isn't his proposal.... Just some random ideas?
People in Taiwan have taken a look at what happened to the assurances that were given to Hong Kong and at the ever more authoritarian developments in China and politely decline to hand China any power voluntarily.
Musk's "suggestions" are a complete sellout to protect his business interests in China. Aparently he is all for free specch, unless you are Chinese, of course.
Musk's "suggestions" are a complete sellout to protect his business interests in China. Aparently he is all for free specch, unless you are Chinese, of course.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Still Elon since his proposal including his suggested voting plan was incredibly stupid. It doesn't matter what the threat is if the "solution" is unrealistic.
Intelligence: Probability of Russia striking Ukraine with tactical nuclear weapons is ‘very high'.
“They will likely target places along the frontlines with lots of personnel and equipment, key command centers, and critical infrastructure,” Vadym Skibitsky, a deputy head of Ukraine's military intelligence, told The Guardian. “In order to stop them, we need not just more anti-aircraft systems...kyivindependent.com
"But Putin wouldn't dare to use nukes" I hear the armchair generals in this thread say, yet Ukrainian military themselves say the probability of a nuclear strike is "very high". Who's clinging to "a fantasy divorced from reality"?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Someone with Elon's reach needs to be better thought out about what they say to the world. He made dumb statements and got his a** handed to him by the public and more importantly Ukrainians. Then some "ride or die" fanboys scrambled to defend his ignorance as they always do.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
Taiwan politicians dismiss Elon Musk’s ‘ill-informed and belittling’ China comments
Musk, the world’s richest person, suggested giving China some control over the island to resolve the cross-strait dispute
www.theguardian.com
Musk is trading with the devil, and we will not be affected by his word.” He went on to say that Musk knew such a suggestion would put Taiwan into the same status as Hong Kong or Tibet.
Beijing has proposed it would rule Taiwan under the same system as Hong Kong, and promised Taiwan would retain some freedoms, but few on the island believe i
A growing majority of Taiwan’s citizens reject the idea of unification with China, and an increasing number of people support outright independenc
Beijing’s crackdown on dissent and opposition in Hong Kong, less than halfway through a promised 50 years of “a high degree of autonomy” is pointed to by Taiwanese politicians as evidence they would not remain free.
In the interview Musk also said Beijing had sought assurances from him that he would not his offer Starlink service in China. Beijing is closely aligned with Russia.
In 1979, "United States recognized that the government of the People's Republic of China was the sole legal government of China, and acknowledged the PRC's position that Taiwan is part of China."
The CCP will not permit Taiwan independence.
The CCP will not permit Taiwan independence.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
And Taiwan will not permit PRC rule.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Is Elon calling for a poll of the Taiwanese people on the issue? 
mspohr
Well-Known Member
I don't know. I wouldn't put it past him to try. As an engineer, he is used to making "practical" trade offs every day. As someone clueless about politics and culture, he may naively think that the people of Taiwan could do the same.Is Elon calling for a poll of the Taiwanese people on the issue?
That’s what gets me…. He’s so eager for a poll in Russian occupied Ukrainian territory … because “the will of the people” … yet China would go absolutely full on war if Taiwan would poll their people about full independence… as stated earlier: he is pro free speech and no censorship… unless it’s about China. I also miss him sharply critiquing Chinese no Covid policies like he complained about Covid policies in California … Odd why he can’t say a bad word about Chinese no Covid …Is Elon calling for a poll of the Taiwanese people on the issue?
Intelligence: Probability of Russia striking Ukraine with tactical nuclear weapons is ‘very high'.
“They will likely target places along the frontlines with lots of personnel and equipment, key command centers, and critical infrastructure,” Vadym Skibitsky, a deputy head of Ukraine's military intelligence, told The Guardian. “In order to stop them, we need not just more anti-aircraft systems...
"But Putin wouldn't dare to use nukes" I hear the armchair generals in this thread say, yet Ukrainian military themselves say the probability of a nuclear strike is "very high". Who's clinging to "a fantasy divorced from reality"?
I do not know what the actual probability of Russia using Nukes is, but I do know that kviv has an interest in painting the possibility that Putin uses nukes as very real, in the hopes of convincing the west to continue support and ideally preemptively prevent such a strike through military intervention.
Aaah… Russia is painting that possibility loud and clear as a not so vague threat when Putin even specifically called it out in two speeches now… it is intended to deter western support rather than increase it
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
If Russia didn’t have nukes there would be a no fly zone over Ukraine (I remember Biden saying as much). Ukraine would be far better off if there was no nuclear threat.
I don’t think the ideas are mutually exclusive.
The US didn’t want to do something so provocative that Russia was threatened into using nuclear weapons. Kviv saying, hey they are going to use Nuclear Weapons anyway, we need to preemptively destroy their ability to launch them…
Lol. Preemptively destroy Russian ability to launch nukes would mean a full on nuclear first strike all over Russia at once … I’m sure that’s the least least likely scenario and Ukraine is certainly not advocating for that as it would mean global nuclear war
The nuclear threat is the latest tactic by Putin as an attempt to scare the West into stopping or dialing back their support for Ukraine. Again - an attempt out of a position of weakness and desperation (in line with the general mobilization, "tactical retreats", swapping out commanders in the field like it's a casting show, and openly attacking civilian targets in downtown Kyiv during rush hour to maximize causalities).
there is ZERO justification for using nukes as Ukraine isn't challenging the existence of Russia to put this mildly. If they end up using tactical nukes on the battlefield they will lose any remaining support they have (China is getting annoyed and India is calling for an end to the war) and strategically it wouldn't change all that much (using nukes wouldn't fix Russian supply lines and challenges to find soldiers).
What can't happen is nuclear blackmail becoming acceptable as that would drive every other nation to seek nukes (after all, you get your way if you have them - even for smaller regional conflicts) and the next candidates to apply nuclear blackmail stand ready... (China - hey USA... retreat from Pacific or we might use nukes...)
there is ZERO justification for using nukes as Ukraine isn't challenging the existence of Russia to put this mildly. If they end up using tactical nukes on the battlefield they will lose any remaining support they have (China is getting annoyed and India is calling for an end to the war) and strategically it wouldn't change all that much (using nukes wouldn't fix Russian supply lines and challenges to find soldiers).
What can't happen is nuclear blackmail becoming acceptable as that would drive every other nation to seek nukes (after all, you get your way if you have them - even for smaller regional conflicts) and the next candidates to apply nuclear blackmail stand ready... (China - hey USA... retreat from Pacific or we might use nukes...)
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