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Elon MuskBattery-poweredTranscontinentalAirplanesBecomesCompelling at 400 wH per kg

MitchJi

Trying to learn kindness, patience & forgiveness
Jun 1, 2015
3,985
8,907
Marin County, CA
Hi,

I am not sure if this is the best location for this, I was not aware of the statement, or the video.

google this statement for more information:
"Elon Musk, the concept of battery-powered transcontinental airplanes becomes “compelling” once batteries hit 400 watt-hours per kilogram"

Next Big Future: Bosch claims they will commercialize 400 watt hour per kilogram solid state batteries at half the price of todays batteries by 2020
September 2015 - German company Bosch acquired California Battery startup Seeo.

Seeo submitted batteries for official testing late last year, claiming an energy density of 220 watt-hours per kilogram. CEO Hal Zarem told GigaOm's Katie Fehrenbacher that the company had "started working on a second-generation battery" which will have an energy density of 400 watt-hours per kilogram, claiming that the company's current batteries were at 300 watt-hours per kilogram. (Keep that "400" number in mind.) The second-generation Li-ion batteries use polymer solid-state electrolytes and metallic lithium anodes.

Here's a guide to gravimetric energy density:

117 watt-hours per kilogram: The level Tesla and Panasonic were achieving in 2008 for the Roadster
200 watt-hours per kilogram: The level Sonny Wu, Boston-Power's CEO, says the company is achieving today
250 watt-hours per kilogram: The approximate energy density of the batteries in the Tesla S
400 watt-hours per kilogram: According to Tesla's Elon Musk, the concept of battery-powered transcontinental airplanes becomes “compelling” once batteries hit 400 watt-hours per kilogram

Published on Nov 4, 2014

Elon Musk talking about Electric Aircraft at MIT AeroAstro Centennial Symposium

100% electric aircraft coupled to solar sourced energy = aircraft operations emissions fall to zero (CO2 & NOx).
What commercial aircraft will look like in 2050
The aircraft industry is expecting a seven-fold increase in air traffic by 2050, and a four-fold increase in greenhouse gas emissions unless fundamental changes are made. But just how “fundamental” will those changes need to be and what will be their effect on the aircraft we use?

The crucial next step towards ensuring the aircraft industry becomes greener is the full electrification of commercial aircraft. That’s zero CO2 and NOx emissions, with energy sourced from power stations that are themselves sustainably fuelled. The main technological barrier that must be overcome is the energy density of batteries, a measure of how much power can be generated from a battery of a certain weight.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk has said that once batteries are capable of producing 400 Watt-hours per kilogram, with a ratio of power cell to overall mass of between 0.7-0.8, an electrical transcontinental aircraft becomes “compelling”.
 
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ScepticMatt

Member
Nov 5, 2014
453
10
Austria
I already talked about the Seeo battery in the BEV competition thread, but here is the gist of it:

* 300-400 Wh/kg is their 2020 paper-target, not a reality.
* They have severe power density issues. Their current Cells have to operate at 80° C,
which is why they scrapped them and started developing another chemistry instead.


Lux Research said:
Bosch’s acquisition of Seeo comes at a crucial time for the fragile startup. Seeo has been trying to pivot from lower-energy LFP (lithium iron phosphate) cathodes towards higher-energy NCA (nickel cobalt aluminum) cathodes to keep ahead of the competition. It was also looking to set up joint ventures to help it scale up production of cells capable of 350 Wh/kg, a crucial step in proving its new technology. However, its high appetite for burning through cash, its unproven cost claims, and technical issues like low ionic conductivity (which limit power and require the battery be heated to about 80 °C) place it mid-pack in our Lux Innovation Grid of interviewed solid-state battery developers:

attachment.php?attachmentid=94427&d=1442423544.jpg

Bosch’s Acquisition of Seeo Marks the Start of a Buying Spree of Next-Generation Battery Technology | Lux Research
 
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MitchJi

Trying to learn kindness, patience & forgiveness
Jun 1, 2015
3,985
8,907
Marin County, CA
I already talked about the Seeo battery in the BEV competition thread, but here is the gist of it:

* 300-400 Wh/kg is their 2020 paper-target, not a reality.
* They have severe power density issues. Their current Cells have to operate at 80° C,
which is why they scrapped them and started developing another chemistry instead.

Hi Matt,

The only reason I included the Seeo information for this quote:
Here's a guide to gravimetric energy density:

117 watt-hours per kilogram: The level Tesla and Panasonic were achieving in 2008 for the Roadster
200 watt-hours per kilogram: The level Sonny Wu, Boston-Power's CEO, says the company is achieving today
250 watt-hours per kilogram: The approximate energy density of the batteries in the Tesla S
400 watt-hours per kilogram: According to Tesla's Elon Musk, the concept of battery-powered transcontinental airplanes becomes “compelling” once batteries hit 400 watt-hours per kilogram
 

Raffy.Roma

Active Member
Jul 22, 2012
3,279
29
Rome (Italy)
Considering the big amount of CO2 emissions of normal airplanes it's very important to start producing electric planes as soon as possible. Nice to see that Elon's committment to this aspect of transportation.
 

Troy

Active Member
Aug 24, 2015
1,957
5,869
That video was Elon's best interview ever. I watched it many times. The full version is below. I think Elon is more impressive when he talks to smart people. It was amazing how quickly he found the flaw in the hyperloop prototype the student had built. I also liked his interaction at the end with the student who reads comic books. I think it was super cool of Elon to ask the student a question. Sometimes people say Elon is awkward in interviews but this was maybe the best interview I have ever watched by anyone.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

ScepticMatt

Member
Nov 5, 2014
453
10
Austria
Hi Matt,The only reason I included the Seeo information for this quote
Alright. I see Tesla on a good path to 400 Wh/kg by increasing the amount of silicon in the anode.
Solid electrolytes have to solve their power density issues.
If they solve it their main benefit is volumetric energy density rather than gravimetric.

As for Lithium-Sulfur or Lithium-Air, they have a very light anode. But both have has a unpractically low volumetric energy density.
It is not guaranteed that they will be competitive with Li-Ion batteries this decade or the next.
 

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