Elon musk's reactions towards BMW and Toyota.

[qwk]

I wonder what the US sales are like? They can't be that great.

 

[Krugerrand]

Should he keep doing this or be less outspoken?

I understand that candor is no longer prized as a human attribute. Instead, we prefer to be coddled and blatantly lied to. When exactly did things get so messed up?

So, yeah, he should keep on being Elon Musk. And as was pointed out by another poster, Elon didn't actually laugh at BMW. It's interesting that even though the transcript of that conference call exists, so many have a hard time comprehending what actually happened.

 

[JohnQ]

An order doesn't necessarily mean a sale. Some of the people that have ordered an i3(electronauts as BMW calls them), have an option to back out. Sales is what really matters.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was curious why Reuters would not be considered reliable when they are simply reporting the order numbers claim of the head of sales. Not that important in the overall context of this discussion.

I agree that orders does not equal sales.

 

[StephenM]

Nobody else with any standing is being clear about Hydrogen Fuel Cells. They really are a dead end technology with zero potential to solve real world problems but they SEEM serious when backed by those big serious companies. The real motives of the companies are to have compliance cars, collect ZEV credits, have a PR showpiece and to avoid doing anything serious that interferes with their core ICE vehicle business as long as possible. The technical confusion created by this can do real harm.

Musk being honest about it at least gets some people thinking and googling the topic. The biggest problem I've encountered in forums trying to get the point across is the difficulty people have in distinguishing "real" working technology from glowing lab press releases. No cost effective technology exists to make hydrogen from water using renewable electric (all commercial practical Hydrogen is steam reformed from natural gas). If it did exist it's not deployed anywhere in the world and would cost trillions of dollars to make available everywhere (unlike using electric power to charge batteries which is a real technology that already exists everywhere). Even if you spent the trillions of dollars to deploy hydrogen infrastructure it would still be less efficient in the best case than Tesla's battery tech is NOW ready to drive away.

"Look, just water vapor from the tail pipe!" Is a shiny distraction toward a technological option that is correctly described as BS.

Completely agree with the above. I spend a lot of time trying to educate my colleagues on FCV's and why BEV's are far superior. They don't believe me because the "major auto manufacturers back it and not so much BEV's". It's a huge disservice to the general public. And I also don't think Elon should tone down anything. His honesty shows his passion and is refreshing to see.

 

[flashflood]

I saw my first i3 in real life driving around the paddock (not the track!) at REFUEL Laguna Seca last weekend. I almost burst out laughing when I saw it. It is SO GOOFY-looking!!! While I certainly want lots of EVs in the world, I just cringe at another storied manufacturer choosing the goofy route, after Tesla clearly demonstrated that elegance works better in the market!

I am so grateful that Elon, like Steve Jobs before him, has taste!

It will probably fare better in Europe, where small and goofy cars are fashionable.

In the US -- how to put this delicately -- the i3 will be a non-starter for American males.

 

[Jack6591]

I like a man who grins when he fights.
Winston Churchhill

 

[Yggdrasill]

It will probably fare better in Europe, where small and goofy cars are fashionable.

In the US -- how to put this delicately -- the i3 will be a non-starter for American males.

I have been surprised by the popularity of the i3 here. BMW actually seems to be production limited, as there is a 3-4 month wait from when you order a car.

Small "goofy" cars do have some popularity here in Norway, but not as much as in the larger cities in Europe. Personally, I really don't see the appeal of the i3. It's significantly more expensive than the Nissan Leaf, the VW e-Golf and the Kia Soul EV; all three of which compare favourably to the i3. In the smaller segment the VW e-Up! is way cheaper and seems like a really nice car. But, I'm think a lot of people buy the i3 as a second car for getting around town. They already have large, expensive vehicle and then they get the i3 because it's a nice fashion statement and works fine for getting around town.

The i3 is currently the 4th or 5th best selling EV here, so it's not as if it's dominating the market, but still, surprisingly successful.

 

[WarpedOne]

I have been surprised by the popularity of the i3 here. BMW actually seems to be production limited, as there is a 3-4 month wait from when you order a car.

More than "production limited" it may be "allocation limited":

Cars.com shows 41 i3′s in inventory in the SF Bay Area (200 mile radius from SF). One Silicon Valley dealer shows 16 units on hand (12 BEV/4 REX). Maybe the initial demand has been satisfied already?
For comparison, the same region has 542 Leafs in stock and 1,574 Volts!. I’ve never seen the Volt numbers this high. The two Silicon Valley dealers that usually have the most inventory have 317 and 400 units respectively. I’ve never seen the numbers over 120 each before.

Still it is one ugly duckling.

 

[Yuri_G]

I wonder what the US sales are like? They can't be that great.

Almost 700 cars in two months. The third best selling EV behind the Leaf and Model S. BMW doesn't separate the range extender and BEV sales for the i3, though.

June 2014 Dashboard - HybridCars.com

 

[Red Sage]

Should he ... be less outspoken?

NO.

 

[DITB]

NO.

That ^

 

[dsm363]

Comparing font sizes in public isn't appropriate.

 

[Red Sage]

 

[green1]

well we certainly can see some forum members that are outspoken...

 

[Aury]

He laughed at the idea that the i3 is competition.

It's the way they laugh at BMW that doesn't sit right with many BMW owners I know. He doesn't just laugh, this isn't the first time Tesla attacks BMW or another brand or person in a way that makes others raise eyebrowns.

I don't think it's fitting for a company and it's offputting. I was a big fan of Tesla, but I have no idea why they can't be respectful to other brands.

- - - Updated - - -

I respect BMW for at least trying to push the EV tech in their own way.

Same, which is why I don't understand why they can't show some more respect.

Elon Musk said that the main goal of Tesla was to promote green cars, if he's being sincere, then why resort to inflammatory statements about other EV and hydrogen.

For many, maybe that's what Tesla is about, disruptive and inflammatory, to me it's offputting.

 

[Shumdit]

Here is my admittedly worthless take: I only believe that hydrogen cars are being produced by Toyota, Hyundai, et al as a result of the higher number of credits that they will receive compared to BEV cars (which are much greater due to the potential range of a hydrogen car). They realy just want to keep making ICE cars ans this is a way to acheive that while also painting themselves as green-minded. I do not believe they will make any more cars then the credits they need for the ICE cars they are making. I think the i3 is an awesome car if for no other reason than it is another reason for people to consider electric cars and puts electric cars in the headlines. I do wish it were a better car but I think 20,000 sales is also 20,000 less ICE cars on the road which is a great thing. The market is well established for odd looking cars that scream "I'm a greenie". We need more mainstream attractive cars like the model S or the ELR that are priced for the masses.

 

[jerry33]

IElon Musk said that the main goal of Tesla was to promote green cars, if he's being sincere, then why resort to inflammatory statements about other EV and hydrogen.

I believe he's trying to shame them into producing real electric cars. Whether that's the right way to go about it is another matter. And of course, hydrogen cars aren't even remotely green.

 

[Johan]

There is a lot of second and third hand blaiming of Elon and other Tesla representatives in this thread. If you actually listen first hand to his critique of other car makers it's actually quite to-the-point but still humble and respectful. If a journalist then interprets and spins what Elon has said in to something else that's just the way journalism is these days.

 

[jerry33]

If a journalist then interprets and spins what Elon has said in to something else that's just the way journalism is these days.

That's certainly true.

 

[ecarfan]

It's the way they laugh at BMW that doesn't sit right with many BMW owners I know. He doesn't just laugh, this isn't the first time Tesla attacks BMW or another brand or person in a way that makes others raise eyebrowns.
I don't think it's fitting for a company and it's offputting. I was a big fan of Tesla, but I have no idea why they can't be respectful to other brands.
Elon Musk said that the main goal of Tesla was to promote green cars, if he's being sincere, then why resort to inflammatory statements about other EV and hydrogen.

Elon isn't laughing at BMW's high quality ICE cars, he's laughing at the idea that the i3 with its 80 mile EV range or the i8 with it's minuscule range are competitors to Tesla at this point in time. They are not competitors no matter how often some journalists try to gain attention by making uneducated claims that they are.

And there is no reason to avoid the fact the fuel cell cars are a joke and are being promoted in extremely deceptive ways to make them sound like they are "green" alternative to BEVs.