Elon please veto your lawyers!

[NigelM]

At least one of the cars had a nag telling me to grab the steering wheel that appeared when it lost one or both of lane lines.

I think some of us understand "nag" differently.

When the car acts squirrely you will grab the steering wheel before you see a nag.

By many definitions, having the car act "squirrely" before alerting you is way too dangerous.

This is why I insist the nag is useless. A more suitable nag would be one that detects you've taken your eyes off the road for an extended amount time.

Unfortunately I don't think you're going to like the Tesla system; there is definitely no internal camera/sensor tracking the drivers face/eyes.

 

[GregTexas]

At you suggesting that only totally no nag AP will make you happy? Just wondering, what would you be doing with your both hands when car is on AP?

That is exactly what I'm suggesting. When you experience the car getting squirrely because of the AP for the first time you will from that point on pay attention to the road. Particularly the lane lines.
Looking at the nag and then looking at the steering wheel takes your focus off the road, the place where you should focus. And since almost 100% of the time that you're forced to apply torque to the the steering wheel the system has already made a good lock on the lane lines, it is totally unnecessary.
I put my hands right above my knees. Sometimes I stretch.

 

[scottf200]

When you experience the car getting squirrely because of the AP for the first time you will from that point on pay attention to the road.

Particularly if you are in a hospital bed because you hit someone and caused a major accident or you went off the road into something. Hopefully you recover and didn't get so hurt that you can't work and that you may drive again.

You may not care about your health but I think the other drivers around you AND Tesla care about their health (bodily and financially)!

 

[GregTexas]

By many definitions, having the car act "squirrely" before alerting you is way too dangerous.

You may want for forgo using AP when you get it then. There is 100% certainty you will have a pucker factor experience of 8 many times using AP unless you only use the system on 3 or more lane freeways riding in the middle lane and all the freeways have clearly marked lanes.
Other than that the car will come across an exit ramp and sometimes dart towards the exit. When on a 4 lane road (2 lanes each way) with a median and you come up to a short left hand turn lane and the car darts into the left hand turn lane, that is a pucker factor 10.

 

[Soolim]

That is exactly what I'm suggesting. When you experience the car getting squirrely because of the AP for the first time you will from that point on pay attention to the road. Particularly the lane lines.
Looking at the nag and then looking at the steering wheel takes your focus off the road, the place where you should focus. And since almost 100% of the time that you're forced to apply torque to the the steering wheel the system has already made a good lock on the lane lines, it is totally unnecessary.
I put my hands right above my knees. Sometimes I stretch.

OK, both of us have not driven Tesla AP yet, therefore the following are conjectures:
1. If I rest my hand on the steering wheel, then I don't have to be looking for the wheel.
2. When I rest my hand on the wheel while AP is doing its job, AP will not nag me and therefore I won't be looking at the nag.
3. For me, there is no difference in resting my hand on the wheel versus resting it on my knees. I can stretch my arms one at a time.
4. How much torque I need to apply on the wheel is yet to be determined by Tesla. I am amaze at how sensitive the accelerator pedal is (i.e. its resolution to control the kW), and how responsive the TACC is to changing road grade (even a slight change in grade cause the kW to fluctuate and keep the speed constant). To me the feedback control loop of the car is amazing.:smile: A little torque to tell the power steering sensor may be all that is needed to signal that my hand is on the wheel. No big deal to me.:wink:
5. You might be pleasantly surprise how good the AP will be, provided the lane detection can track the lane. :wink:

That is how I plan to use the AP when it is release. It may change depending on what the reality is. But I am pretty optimistic for once:wink:. Stall parking is another subject matter.

 

[gsxdsm]

You may want for forgo using AP when you get it then. There is 100% certainty you will have a pucker factor experience of 8 many times using AP unless you only use the system on 3 or more lane freeways riding in the middle lane and all the freeways have clearly marked lanes.
Other than that the car will come across an exit ramp and sometimes dart towards the exit. When on a 4 lane road (2 lanes each way) with a median and you come up to a short left hand turn lane and the car darts into the left hand turn lane, that is a pucker factor 10.

Just so we are all clear here - you haven't actually driven a tesla with autopilot, correct?

 

[GregTexas]

Just so we are all clear here - you haven't actually driven a tesla with autopilot, correct?

I evoke my 5th amendment rights.

- - - Updated - - -

OK, both of us have not driven Tesla AP yet, therefore the following are conjectures:
1. If I rest my hand on the steering wheel, then I don't have to be looking for the wheel.

If you're going to rest your hand there you may as well turn off AP. You can very lightly hold the steering wheel and let the AP adjustments slide through your finger tips.

2. When I rest my hand on the wheel while AP is doing its job, AP will not nag me and therefore I won't be looking at the nag.

The AP will nag you because it only turns off the nag if you apply torque to the steering wheel. So even if the AP has already locked back on lane lines you still have to make the car move left or right. You could grab the steering wheel and slightly fight the AP to cause the nag to go off but then you have to wait until the AP makes an adjustment.
If you fight the AP too much it will shut off.

3. For me, there is no difference in resting my hand on the wheel versus resting it on my knees. I can stretch my arms one at a time.

Explained above.

 

[NigelM]

You may want for forgo using AP when you get it then.

Amazing how many rants inevitably end up with someone saying this.

 

[Coiled]

When on a 4 lane road (2 lanes each way) with a median and you come up to a short left hand turn lane and the car darts into the left hand turn lane, that is a pucker factor 10.

Good to know. That's a situation that will catch some people by surprise.

The AP will nag you because it only turns off the nag if you apply torque to the steering wheel. So even if the AP has already locked back on lane lines you still have to make the car move left or right. You could grab the steering wheel and slightly fight the AP to cause the nag to go off but then you have to wait until the AP makes an adjustment.
If you fight the AP too much it will shut off.

If this is true for Tesla's AP, it does sound mildly annoying, and can I see why you'd call it a pointless nag. I'm going to reserve judgment though. Things may improve before or after the public release.

 

[Soolim]

The AP will nag you because it only turns off the nag if you apply torque to the steering wheel. So even if the AP has already locked back on lane lines you still have to make the car move left or right. You could grab the steering wheel and slightly fight the AP to cause the nag to go off but then you have to wait until the AP makes an adjustment. If you fight the AP too much it will shut off.

This is where we have difference in opinion on something both of us are speculating. I am making the prediction that advance feedback control system constantly makes minute changes (not detectable by most people) even if lane keeping is already locked-on. Me lightly holding the wheel gives a feedback to the control system that I am there, and AP just stays the course. There is no need to make large correction to Tesla AP. Making large manual correction tells the AP to surrender the steering to me, for accident avoidance. There should be a seamless transition from AP to driver full control, without touching the screen.

Summarized:
You premise that I have to apply significant torque. I believe lightly holding the wheel will be adequate for AP without nag.

Thanks for your participation in this discussion.

 

[Max*]

This is where we have difference in opinion on something both of us are speculating. I am making the prediction that advance feedback control system constantly makes minute changes (not detectable by most people) even if lane keeping is already locked-on. Me lightly holding the wheel gives a feedback to the control system that I am there, and AP just stays the course. There is no need to make large correction to Tesla AP. Making large manual correction tells the AP to surrender the steering to me, for accident avoidance. There should be a seamless transition from AP to driver full control, without touching the screen.

Summarized:
You premise that I have to apply significant torque. I believe lightly holding the wheel will be adequate for AP without nag.

Thanks for your participation in this discussion.

+1. Agreed on all of this.

I made the same argument last week with someone here...

 

[lolachampcar]

AP with my hand on the wheel is me driving.
Greg is making the most sense here and I would see the need for constant hands on adult supervision as more of an annoyance then a feature.

I too have to agree that, if you incapable of evaluating and operating a system then, you simply should pass on using the system. I would prefer systems not designed for the lowest common denominator.

 

[Coiled]

This is where we have difference in opinion on something both of us are speculating.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, GregTexas is now heavily hinting that he has actually driven the Tesla autopilot beta.

 

[lolachampcar]

I hope not for his sake as publicly requesting a feature be deleted would surely result in being barred from ever officially having access to early stuff. If he looked over someone else's shoulder, I hope there is no way to track that back to the Beta.

 

[Soolim]

Unless I'm reading it wrong, GregTexas is now heavily hinting that he has actually driven the Tesla autopilot beta.

Could be true, implied by his taking the fifth on actually driven a Tesla AP beta?

 

[Coiled]

Could be true, implied by his taking the fifth on actually driven a Tesla AP beta?

Yes, and by describing in some detail how "AP" works. Since no other car has had something called autopilot, it would be disingenuous to say these things without having actually driven the Tesla AP. But maybe he's just making a lot of assumptions based on other cars.

 

[GregTexas]

You premise that I have to apply significant torque. I believe lightly holding the wheel will be adequate for AP without nag.

Significant torque is subjective but you must physically turn the steering wheel or hold enough to slightly stop the AP from turning the wheel.
Notice the Prius picture on the first page. The soda can is applying torque in one direction to defeat the nag. So in the case of a Prius you need to apply the amount of torque with your hand with the amount of torque a full soda can exerts.

 

[Coiled]

Significant torque is subjective but you must physically turn the steering wheel or hold enough to slightly stop the AP from turning the wheel.

Unless Tesla's AP works differently from the other cars you're talking about.

By the way, what car did you drive that kept the nag on even after it reacquired the lane lines? And how do you know the nag will be visual and not an audible tone?

 

[GregTexas]

Unless Tesla's AP works differently from the other cars you're talking about.

By the way, what car did you drive that kept the nag on even after it reacquired the lane lines? And how do you know the nag will be visual and not an audible tone?

A Ford SUV was the last one I drove that kept the nag on until I turned the steering wheel. Hundai Genesis did the same.
Every car that I drove that had a nag it was visual because it told me to grab the steering wheel. An audible tone can't do that.
Tesla is all about visual.

 

[gsxdsm]

A Ford SUV was the last one I drove that kept the nag on until I turned the steering wheel. Hundai Genesis did the same.
Every car that I drove that had a nag it was visual because it told me to grab the steering wheel. An audible tone can't do that.
Tesla is all about visual.

Greg - I'm not following you here.

Ford, Hyundai Genesis, and Toyota Prius ONLY feature Lane Keep Assist.

Lane Keep Assist is a fundamentally different technology from AutoSteer in Tesla's v7 release.

Lane Keep Assist detects the car drifting out of the lane and will apply some torque to keep you back (leading to the ping-ponging that some people complain about). It's isn't designed to keep you centered and in your lane without assistance. It would make sense that you would have to keep your hands on the wheel as expected for these cars.

The Q50 actually does have Lane Centering and doesn't require hands on the wheel, which presumably (and based on other reports) is the same as Tesla's AutoSteer feature of AutoPilot.