Elon please veto your lawyers!

[GregTexas]

Greg - I'm not following you here.

Ford, Hyundai Genesis, and Toyota Prius ONLY feature Lane Keep Assist.

Lane Keep Assist is a fundamentally different technology from AutoSteer in Tesla's v7 release.

Lane Keep Assist detects the car drifting out of the lane and will apply some torque to keep you back (leading to the ping-ponging that some people complain about). It's isn't designed to keep you centered and in your lane without assistance. It would make sense that you would have to keep your hands on the wheel as expected for these cars.

The Q50 actually does have Lane Centering and doesn't require hands on the wheel, which presumably (and based on other reports) is the same as Tesla's AutoSteer feature of AutoPilot.

I haven't tried the Prius but on the Ford and Genesis I thought they were doing the same as Tesla. They monitor the lane lines and turn the steering wheel to keep you in the lane.

Yes, of all the cars I tested the Q50 was the best and it was lousy with curves. Tesla claims on their website AP handles curves.

I'm hoping that when Tesla comes out of beta, the nag will be history. Then the Tesla AP will blow away the Q50.

 

[Soolim]

Significant torque is subjective but you must physically turn the steering wheel or hold enough to slightly stop the AP from turning the wheel.
Notice the Prius picture on the first page. The soda can is applying torque in one direction to defeat the nag. So in the case of a Prius you need to apply the amount of torque with your hand with the amount of torque a full soda can exerts.

OK, a can of soda weighs about 0.8 lb. The position of the can of soda is say 7 inches from the wheel center, therefore the torque is 0.8*7"/12"= 0.046 ft-lb. This is less torque than when you normally hold a can with your forearm in horizontal position. With a forearm of 14" long, torque is 0.8*14"/12"= .93 ft-lb. twice the torque as compared to the soda can on the wheel. 0.046 ft-lb is a low torque in my hand.

 

[GregTexas]

Could be true, implied by his taking the fifth on actually driven a Tesla AP beta?

You guys are so gullible.

 

[Soolim]

You guys are so gullible.

Not gullible, but simply being respectful by keeping an open mind. You noticed my ? at the end of the sentence you quote:tongue:

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AP with my hand on the wheel is me driving.
Greg is making the most sense here and I would see the need for constant hands on adult supervision as more of an annoyance then a feature.

I too have to agree that, if you incapable of evaluating and operating a system then, you simply should pass on using the system. I would prefer systems not designed for the lowest common denominator.

You mean if the AP comes with nag, you won't use it? That is fine by me:smile:

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Unless I'm reading it wrong, GregTexas is now heavily hinting that he has actually driven the Tesla autopilot beta.

Looks like he denies it.

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But maybe he's just making a lot of assumptions based on other cars.

I would agree with you, unless disputed by Greg.

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Every car that I drove that had a nag it was visual because it told me to grab the steering wheel. An audible tone can't do that. Tesla is all about visual.

A visual plus a Voice Command "Hands on Wheel" in a language of your choice :tongue:

 

[GregTexas]

You mean if the AP comes with nag, you won't use it? That is fine by me:smile:

I'll use it after I install a soda can.

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A visual plus a Voice Command "Hands on Wheel" in a language of your choice :tongue:

Voice != Audible Tone :tongue:

 

[skilly]

Agreed. I have a friend with a nag auto steer system. It is terrible and totally ruins the auto drive experience. I am responsible for my car when I am the pilot and do not need to be distracted by a nanny. I am also a pilot and the autopilot system on my aircraft does not require a nanny. It is well established that the PILOT is RESPONSIBLE for his aircraft and all of the systems. Why would it be any different with a car. The DRIVER is RESPONSIBLE for the operation of the car and all its systems and is RESPONSIBLE to learn their proper use. I would be fine with a one time pop up or a pop up for every 50 ignition cycles that has me agree that use of the autopilot requires the driver to maintain constant vigilance of the system.

If a drivers licensee went through as much scrutiny as a commercial pilot I might fully agree with this comparison. I agree with your position though - in fact, I feel like the common driver is so poorly aware of his/her surroundings, that the autopilot features will likely be a far bigger improvement to the roads if some people NEVER touch a steering wheel.

Many cars today lock down even the simple entry of an address into the navigation once the car is in motion...you have to come to a full stop, not even allowing a disclaimer screen that gets you past that. I guess we can all be thankful that TM hasn't gone as far as those precautions. And, from a regulatory standpoint, Ill remain hopeful since they haven't linked anything like this into mobile phone use, which has been proven to be more dangerous than a drunk driver behind the wheel.

Does anyone have any definitive proof that v7 is being held back for these reasons, or is this just speculation??

 

[Soolim]

I'll use it after I install a soda can.

Empty soda can will not work, so make sure the can of soda is full :wink:
I prefer the voice command from Star-Trek Captain Jean-Luc Picard.

 

[GregTexas]

If you're in the beta program please provide feedback that this nag is unnecessary. For those that like nags maybe Tesla will make the nag optional.

 

[NigelM]

If you're in the beta program please provide feedback that this nag is unnecessary.

The nagging on here shouldn't affect the EAP group's unbiased input, otherwise they'd be in the unenviable position of having to decide which POV was the most important. Tesla does follow these forums, I'm sure they noted your preference.

 

[lolachampcar]

Nigel,
You're post, combined with my imagination, crack me up. The first time I read the above post I took POV for POS

 

[davecolene0606]

Very poor analogy.
How often are you flying your plane in formation with 2-4 other planes within 8 feet?

Its not the formation flying, it's, the CAT IIIA auto land where one hits the runway before one sees it that takes faith and unfettered monitoring. :biggrin:

Any Autopilot is just that, not an autonomous Folks need to be educated to that point. I get the "hey what do you guys do up there when the planes drivin itself" comment all the time. My answer.... "it has no ability to anticipate and will try to kill us all, so we make sure it does what it's told"

Fire away!

 

[lolachampcar]

now dave.....
do not get me started on what automation is doing to the newest crop of pilots
BTW, feel free to come down any day, strap on a chute and go for a "spin" with me :0

 

[GregTexas]

At the current ability of autonomous driving, I think it is necessary to always have at least on hand on the wheel. There are situations where the driver must take control immediately, in less than one second, sometimes much less.

Should you also have your foot lightly touching the brake pedal?

 

[GregTexas]

Reminds me of Mercedes:

I think the Tesla AP will function like the Mercedes AP since Tesla uses Mercedes parts. As you see in this video, applying a weight to one side of the steering wheel eliminates the nag.
When I first started testing cars with AP I would drive them all. (I'm using AP across the board here because I don't remember all the different names car companies have for AP and AP is shorter.)
By the time I got to Mercedes I would ask if there was a nag and if so I wouldn't bother driving the car. A lot of salesmen didn't even know they had a car that would lane keep.
It was a new experience for them when we took the test drive.

 

[Soolim]

I have test driven almost all the cars out that do lane keeping. I'm very familiar with the good and bad. I would never buy a car with the nag feature. Infiniti and Audi do not nag. Volvo doesn't nag but their lane keeping was terrible. I drove an Infiniti Q50 form Texas to California and the lane keeping made the trip much more enjoyable. The Q50 was great on straightaways but usually needed some help on the curves.

Have you driven a Tesla Model S for considerable amount of time with TACC and lane detection in action? Your first post gave me the impression that you are still shopping or considering a Tesla, am I wrong?

Should you also have your foot lightly touching the brake pedal?

Attempting to be facetious? :tongue:
Hand on wheel and foot lightly on brake pedal are different matters. Firstly, hand on wheel tells AP you are engage in driving (i.e you are responsible for driving with some lane keeping assistance from AP). This action does not provide feedback to other drivers around you.

However, touching the brake pedal could inadvertently turn on the brake light and confuse the car behind you. For TACC, others will tell you to have your foot be ready to brake, but not touching the brake.

 

[GregTexas]

Have you driven a Tesla Model S for considerable amount of time with TACC and lane detection in action? Your first post gave me the impression that you are still shopping or considering a Tesla, am I wrong?

I wanted to buy a Tesla a couple of years ago but didn't because there was no TACC. When I found out they have TACC I bought one. Now I'm looking for an SUV for my wife and I want the best AP system available.
As it stands, If Tesla eliminates this nag in the beta, the Tesla AP will blow away all the competition if it handles curves as they state on their website. Then I will buy the Model X and have 2 Teslas.

Attempting to be facetious? :tongue:
Hand on wheel and foot lightly on brake pedal are different matters. Firstly, hand on wheel tells AP you are engage in driving (i.e you are responsible for driving with some lane keeping assistance from AP). This action does not provide feedback to other drivers around you.

However, touching the brake pedal could inadvertently turn on the brake light and confuse the car behind you. For TACC, others will tell you to have your foot be ready to brake, but not touching the brake.

I was responding to a post saying you need to keep a hand on the wheel to cut down your response time. I think braking response time is just as important if not more important.

 

[cgiGuy]

For TACC, others will tell you to have your foot be ready to brake, but not touching the brake.

But how will the system know you're still awake and "ready to brake" if it doesn't sense you somehow every so often. I think that's the point he was trying to make.

Some people have set cruise control and fallen asleep ever since it was invented. At least with AP, if you fall asleep the system will keep you from crashing until it needs intervention because it can't see/understand something clearly.

 

[NigelM]

But how will the system know you're still awake and "ready to brake" if it doesn't sense you somehow every so often. I think that's the point he was trying to make.

Some people have set cruise control and fallen asleep ever since it was invented. At least with AP, if you fall asleep the system will keep you from crashing until it needs intervention because it can't see/understand something clearly.

I'd be willing to bet that if you do not take back control when Autosteer asks you to then you'll get audible warnings and the car will slow to come to a safe stop with hazard lights on. IIRC this was described by Elon a while back.

 

[Max*]

I'd be willing to bet that if you do not take back control when Autosteer asks you to then you'll get audible warnings and the car will slow to come to a safe stop with hazard lights on. IIRC this was described by Elon a while back.

Good thing they did the same thing for TACC!!! (<--- that was sarcasm, in case it wasn't obvious)

 

[NigelM]

Good thing they did the same thing for TACC!!! (<--- that was sarcasm, in case it wasn't obvious)

Is that how TACC works? I don't have TACC but I thought it just disengaged and the regen braking kicked in.