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Elon Puts His Foot In His Mouth Again

TravelFree

Member
Mar 23, 2020
940
876
Jacksonville, Florida
from all I've read, its uvC that deactivates the virus, not uvA or B, which you can get from the sun.

all the germicidal lamps (I am buying/building those for a DIY, fwiw) are uvc.

being in the sun is not really going to do much; and uv from the sun is not really *great* for you. you need some, but I would not go seeking UV for my skin. I value my skin. I need it. it covers pretty much my whole body ;)

The study recently released made the claim that UVc is what shortens the life of CV and that you are more exposed to UVc in the outdoors than locked up in your home. Concluding that for infectious diseases including viruses, being outdoors is better than being locked up inside. That's the thinking behind opening up the beaches in Florida as long as social distancing continues to be followed. Yes, UVc is more effective when exposed to a welding light or germicidal light, but that doesn't mean being outside is more dangerous than inside according to the latest studies.

I agree with you that sunbathing is dangerous WRT skin cancer. I know as I have been treated for skin cancer because I spent too much time in the sun when I was younger.
 

TEG

Teslafanatic
Aug 20, 2006
21,968
9,198
...Meanwhile Tesla was allowed to stay open for deliveries under their own social distancing company guidelines here in Jacksonville. Of course, I'm no expert on Fremont California but I side with Elon Musk that he should have been allowed to manage his company as necessary. Isn't this the second time the government ordered Tesla to close when the fires caused a problem in the nearby counties? Can't recall the details now but seems we had to get detoured on I-5 because of the fires one year. I thought Tesla was closed then too.

For what it is worth, I have toured that factory multiple times, so I have a little idea of what goes on there.
In the early days of Tesla when they were looking to build their first factory, there was a bunch of debate where to build. They even had some nearly-done deals with Albuquerque and San Jose to build new factories, but then Toyota basically offered them the shuttered Fremont factory for nearly free. (Toyota bought like $42million in TSLA stock, then sold them the factory for $42million.)
[ Actually Toyota did well on that deal because TSLA went up a lot before they eventually sold it. ]
I had posted online before all this that Tesla should buy that factory because it was a so close to HQ and already built just collecting dust... But people laughed at the idea at the time:
"Way more space then they would ever need" (who is laughing now?)
"Too expensive to run a factory in the SF bay area."
"Not the most business friendly place to run a factory."
So those last 2 points are somewhat valid. Tesla has proven they could turn that derelict old factory into a success story. They brought back a lot of jobs to the area. It was probably helpful that HQ management and engineers could just drive over there instead of flying to another state. They had ready access to an idled workforce.
*but* they could have found cheaper labor doing it somewhere else. And yes, California is tougher than many other states on environmental and safety issues.
It is a mixed bag, but I am sure there are times that they have been frustrated that they have to do it the "California way" which is more pro-worker and pro-environment.
I think Tesla must have some respect for these goals or else they wouldn't have taken the competitive disadvantage by doing it this way.
I am very glad that Tesla did it. It has provided lots of local jobs and some pride in "Made in California" (and made in USA) which were fading away.

I am not going to second guess all the debates and decisions Tesla has made with environmental and safety regulators. Hard to make everyone happy on those. Generally I think California regulators are fairly reasonable,, but many would probably disagree with that. This current COVID situation is sort of a s%!tshow with so many saying "Why did they do X when they should have done Y?" with little data to prove why other choices would be better. Everyone is frustrated with this situation. It sucks. What is the value trade-off between public health and business productivity? We got plenty of extreme viewpoints based on whatever axe one has to grind. Many decisions are being made based on speculative assumptions of what may happen. "Control freaks" are going bonkers trying to manage this squishy situation.
 
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TEG

Teslafanatic
Aug 20, 2006
21,968
9,198
There seems to be some myth or bad information about beaches. One one hand governors in coastal states are creating a FUD on being outside at the beach, yet science claims the safer place to be is outside in the sun since the CV has very short lifespan in UV light. Probably sunbathing is good for killing CV but bad for getting skin cancer in 20 years. Pick your poison.

A lot of people love being on the beach so much that they are willing to take risks to get back in the sand.
But I think any large public gatherings risk virus spread, even the beach. As I mentioned before, people will be sharing public restrooms at the beach, so it isn't all about being outside in the fresh air. And, yes, the stories about UV light killing the virus, which people have latched onto to say beaches are "safe", was about UV-C light which earth's ozone layer keeps from reaching us.
Can you kill coronavirus with UV light?
There’s only one type of UV that can reliably inactivate Covid-19 – and it’s extremely dangerous.

People are mis-quoting a lot of things to help get what they want. I am not sure if it is wishful thinking, false hope, or rationalization.

Speculating myself: Maybe the outdoor breeze and sunlight helps dry out droplets faster? Maybe COVID doesn't last long on sand? I don't know. I don't feel like testing those theories myself.
 
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linux-works

Active Member
Dec 23, 2019
2,190
4,190
mtn view, ca
The study recently released made the claim that UVc is what shortens the life of CV and that you are more exposed to UVc in the outdoors than locked up in your home. Concluding that for infectious diseases including viruses, being outdoors is better than being locked up inside. That's the thinking behind opening up the beaches in Florida as long as social distancing continues to be followed. Yes, UVc is more effective when exposed to a welding light or germicidal light, but that doesn't mean being outside is more dangerous than inside according to the latest studies.

I agree with you that sunbathing is dangerous WRT skin cancer. I know as I have been treated for skin cancer because I spent too much time in the sun when I was younger.

again, uvc is considered to be fully blocked by the earth's ozone. if you are getting uv from outside, its NOT from uvc.

uva and uvb do not affect viruses, in general - again, from what little I've read (the last few months since its relevant to all of us, now).

wavelength matters. a lot. that's why 'sun tanning' and such does not do anything for CV. and the only germicidal bulbs are 250nm, which is uvc and not uva nor uvb.

Can you kill coronavirus with UV light?

There is also a third type: UVC. This relatively obscure part of the spectrum consists of a shorter, more energetic wavelength of light. It is particularly good at destroying genetic material – whether in humans or viral particles. Luckily, most of us are unlikely to have ever encountered any. That’s because it’s filtered out by ozone in the atmosphere long before it reaches our fragile skin.

Or that was the case, at least, until scientists discovered that they could harness UVC to kill microorganisms. Since the finding in 1878, artificially produced UVC has become a staple method of sterilisation – one used in hospitals, airplanes, offices, and factories every day. Crucially, it’s also fundamental to the process of sanitising drinking water; some parasites are resistant to chemical disinfectants such as chlorine, so it provides a failsafe.
 

TEG

Teslafanatic
Aug 20, 2006
21,968
9,198

So he seems to be "anti-lockdown" & "anti-social-distancing", but "pro-mask", & "pro test-and-quarantine-the-infected", & "pro cause herd immunity."

He also says Sweden in a "winner", and Australia is a "loser" which seems wrong to me...
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
Sweden's coronavirus death rate is nearly double that of the U.S., Trump says country is 'paying heavily' for not imposing a lockdown
Australia slowly comes out of COVID-19 lockdown with packed beaches in Queensland and at Bondi | Daily Mail Online

His view point seems be that herd-immunity is the main goal, not keeping the virus from infecting people...
Not surprising that he got interviewed by an anti-lockdown site.

His thoughts about sacrificing old people to protect young people are thought provoking, but controversial.

With all his brilliance and deep numbers research, I find he rambled a bit which made it hard to know exactly what point he was trying to make.

What was your point in posting that video? To "prove" that we shouldn't be "sheltering in place?"

[ One of his closing quotes was basically "we made a mistake... by allowing the population to increase"... So keep in mind that he seems OK with letting a lot of his older generation die in the name of making life more "normal" for younger people... ]
 
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TEG

Teslafanatic
Aug 20, 2006
21,968
9,198
again, uvc is considered to be fully blocked by the earth's ozone. if you are getting uv from outside, its NOT from uvc.
uva and uvb do not affect viruses, in general - again, from what little I've read (the last few months since its relevant to all of us, now).
wavelength matters. a lot. that's why 'sun tanning' and such does not do anything for CV. and the only germicidal bulbs are 250nm, which is uvc and not uva nor uvb.

More on this:
The Ozone Layer Protects Us From UV Radiation - Can UV Protect Us From Coronavirus?
 

TEG

Teslafanatic
Aug 20, 2006
21,968
9,198
So here is a random thought... Throw it into the outlandish conspiracy theory bucket...

What if someone in the world was deeply concerned that overpopulation had led to man-made climate change and future generations would find the planet nearly uninhabitable and the only way out is to shut down manufacturing, transportation, and reduce the global population? What if they had hundreds of deadly viruses in a lab and figured out which one would reduce the elderly population but preserve youth and cause society to shut themselves down to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

Totally unbelievable, right?
 
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Jayson

Member
Mar 19, 2020
50
115
USA
Elon is ambitious, creative, and wildly successful. But that does not qualify him as an expert on either democracy or epidemiology. Since he has chosen to opine publicly, he should be prepared for corrections.

Let’s start with democracy. The United States is a representative democracy. In the U.S., citizens elect their representatives at all levels of government—local, state, and federal. Those elected representatives either pass new laws or, working within the confines of the constitution, execute existing laws. Certain executives, above all the president and governors, have powers enshrined in the constitution, law, or legal precedent to make decisions that, by some, may be seen as infringement on their rights.

For example, the Trump administration has used executive orders for many reasons, among them restricting immigration, altering wildlife-conservation areas, and permitting the use of lead ammunition for hunting. None of those decisions required new legislation and some were seen as infringements on rights. Previous administrations have also frequently issued executive orders. Indeed, the prerogative extends back to George Washington. Article II of the Constitution provides the president with executive authority to determine how the law should be applied, and almost every president in history has used that power, with recent presidents—Democrat and Republican alike—resorting ever more frequently to executive orders to carry out policy.

Similarly, state governors are considered in the law to have executive authority, which can vary by state according to its constitution, legislative history, and tradition.

So, unless Elon believes the U.S. or state constitutions are themselves “fascist” or “not democratic,” many of the powers exercised by executive authority are fully compatible with U.S.-style representative and constitutional democracy. Elon is welcome to his opinion about executive orders and much else, as is his constitutional right. But if he feels executive authority has gone too far, he is within his rights to seek redress through the courts or to remove public officials in elections. Either approach would be democratic and surely not fascist.

But if all Elon had done in his tirade last week was reveal his ignorance of law and history, that could be easily overlooked as another example of why wealth and wisdom seldom are found in the same person.

Rather, the most dangerous aspect of his remarks was his assertion that free will trumps all. “Give people back their goddamn freedom,” he said. But your right to swing your fist ends at my nose, to paraphrase a line attributed to former U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes. Or, in the context of the ongoing pandemic, you might say: Your right to freely associate and thereby risk your and other peoples’ lives by transmitting Covid-19 is limited by the rights of others to not be harmed by your actions.

It is the same as restricting the amount one can drink before driving. Or does Elon believe us Tesla drivers should be able to motor off after more than a few?

Elon received a bachelor’s degree in economics from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. Maybe he missed the lecture on externalities in economics, or he would have well understood the preceding paragraphs. It is not an infringement of personal liberty when society asks you to halt actions that put others at mortal risk.

Liberal thinking is foundational to modern democracy. Individual liberty resides at the heart of the U.S. Constitution and underpins our representative democracy. But liberal thinking is not the same as unbridled libertarianism. Absolutes are rare, above all in civil society. Liberty in democratic society has limitations. Unfortunately, successful, self-made people can be blinded by delusions of meritocratic free will, which is why, when it comes to organizing society’s affairs, entrepreneurs need not apply.
 

Randy Spencer

Supercharger Hunter
Mar 31, 2016
3,737
3,910
Alameda, CA
Couldn't have said it better.

OK, this has been quite a discussion about CV-19, but I think this thread was about Elon putting his foot in his mouth.

To that end, I read somewhere that when Elon posted that he thought the stock price was too high (quickly followed by a diminution of the stock) he, in fact, stopped the trigger for his $750 million bonus, for the stock price reaching certain levels and staying above for a certain amount of time. So as upset as average stockholders might be, he lost MUCH more from that tweet than anyone else.

The comment was that by doing this he saved the Tesla Q2 results from being depressed from paying him that amount in stock. Q2 being the quarter that will be MOST affected by the outbreak and lockdown. This may mean that Q2 profits, when we get there, may have positive results. This would mean 4 quarters of profit, a prerequisite for S&P admission. Joining the S&P will do a LOT to cement Tesla as a real company increasing its success at accomplishing its mission.

The quote was something like Elon is playing 3D chess while we are all playing checkers. Then you couch it in terms of a CEO upset over the business being on lockdown and he can tweet w/o SEC investigation.

That seems very clever if it's the case.
 
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TEG

Teslafanatic
Aug 20, 2006
21,968
9,198
"do not adjust your tv set. we control the horizontal. we control the vertical."
lwol.png
 
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TEG

Teslafanatic
Aug 20, 2006
21,968
9,198
Couldn't have said it better.

OK, this has been quite a discussion about CV-19, but I think this thread was about Elon putting his foot in his mouth.

To that end, I read somewhere that when Elon posted that he thought the stock price was too high (quickly followed by a diminution of the stock) he, in fact, stopped the trigger for his $750 million bonus, for the stock price reaching certain levels and staying above for a certain amount of time. So as upset as average stockholders might be, he lost MUCH more from that tweet than anyone else.

The comment was that by doing this he saved the Tesla Q2 results from being depressed from paying him that amount in stock. Q2 being the quarter that will be MOST affected by the outbreak and lockdown. This may mean that Q2 profits, when we get there, may have positive results. This would mean 4 quarters of profit, a prerequisite for S&P admission. Joining the S&P will do a LOT to cement Tesla as a real company increasing its success at accomplishing its mission.

The quote was something like Elon is playing 3D chess while we are all playing checkers. Then you couch it in terms of a CEO upset over the business being on lockdown and he can tweet w/o SEC investigation.

That seems very clever if it's the case.

Isn't his incentive based on company value being > $100billion for > 6 months?
Even with the stock back to $700, it looks like market cap is still over $100billion (more like $130billion).
So, doesn't that mean the incentive is still in place?

People tend to dislike business-insider articles, but a search found these that claim to recap his package (as mentioned in January):
Elon Musk's road to a $55 billion payday is as complicated and full of detours as a video game — and he just unlocked the first level
Tesla's surging stock has Elon Musk on the brink of unlocking a $346 million payout. Here's what has to happen. (TSLA) | Markets Insider
 

MXLRplus

Active Member
Mar 11, 2020
1,600
2,805
Eastvale, CA
Let's see, forbid firearm sales, close churches, arrest anyone protesting, restrict speech, sure sounds like an odd Constitutional Republic to me. Perhaps it's more like North Korea's Democratic Republic.

Just because you agree with the suspension of civil rights doesn't mean it's Constitutional. Why people can't admit to it is curious.
 

tcoombes

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Jan 22, 2018
1,070
3,466
Northern California
Couldn't have said it better.

OK, this has been quite a discussion about CV-19, but I think this thread was about Elon putting his foot in his mouth.

To that end, I read somewhere that when Elon posted that he thought the stock price was too high (quickly followed by a diminution of the stock) he, in fact, stopped the trigger for his $750 million bonus, for the stock price reaching certain levels and staying above for a certain amount of time. So as upset as average stockholders might be, he lost MUCH more from that tweet than anyone else.

The comment was that by doing this he saved the Tesla Q2 results from being depressed from paying him that amount in stock. Q2 being the quarter that will be MOST affected by the outbreak and lockdown. This may mean that Q2 profits, when we get there, may have positive results. This would mean 4 quarters of profit, a prerequisite for S&P admission. Joining the S&P will do a LOT to cement Tesla as a real company increasing its success at accomplishing its mission.

The quote was something like Elon is playing 3D chess while we are all playing checkers. Then you couch it in terms of a CEO upset over the business being on lockdown and he can tweet w/o SEC investigation.

That seems very clever if it's the case.

So, Randy do you think Elon fell on his sword to help secure Tesla’s position and all of the rants about having to sell all of his possessions and the Star Spangled Banner were contrived?
 

Jayson

Member
Mar 19, 2020
50
115
USA
Let's see, forbid firearm sales, close churches, arrest anyone protesting, restrict speech, sure sounds like an odd Constitutional Republic to me. Perhaps it's more like North Korea's Democratic Republic.

Just because you agree with the suspension of civil rights doesn't mean it's Constitutional. Why people can't admit to it is curious.
No need to admit to a pack lies. The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld restrictions on gun sales. Think you would have a big problem convincing the court that the recent restrictions have some kind of hidden agenda regarding firearm sales.

And churches are not closed. And everyone protesting is not being arrested. And speech is not being restricted.

To compare the restrictions to North Korea is completely laughable. The debate over the restrictions is hardly being censored.

You and our bud Elon may not like the restrictions, but other than a few overreaching ones as in Michigan, they are perfectly legal.
 
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Uncle Paul

Well-Known Member
Nov 1, 2013
6,299
7,602
Canyon Lake,CA
It would be amazing if the much feared human caused reduction in the Ozone layer was causing UVC to reach Earth and help eliminate Corona Virus. Ironic even.
 

Randy Spencer

Supercharger Hunter
Mar 31, 2016
3,737
3,910
Alameda, CA
So, Randy do you think Elon fell on his sword to help secure Tesla’s position and all of the rants about having to sell all of his possessions and the Star Spangled Banner were contrived?
Who knows? Just kept hearing that he had botched his bonus by doing it. If that were true and he put the company on a better footing by doing it I would not be upset. He may also be upset with California and about to move to Texas so he can be near the new Terafactory as they ramp up. These could all be positive business decisions. Just trying to be the silver lining guy
 
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tcoombes

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Jan 22, 2018
1,070
3,466
Northern California
Who knows? Just kept hearing that he had botched his bonus by doing it. If that were true and he put the company on a better footing by doing it I would not be upset. He may also be upset with California and about to move to Texas so he can be near the new Terafactory as they ramp up. These could all be positive business decisions. Just trying to be the silver lining guy

Thanks Randy. It’s difficult to know. He could be playing 3d or 4d chess, but it could be much more simple than that. Big stock bonus = big taxes, maybe that factored into all the stuff about selling all of his possessions and not owning a home. Cash flow matters even for a billionaire. Tough to figure. He’s definitely under stress with the business and with the new baby due today.
 

tomas

Out of warranty...
Supporting Member
Oct 22, 2012
4,320
4,240
Santa Barbara/New York
So here is a random thought... Throw it into the outlandish conspiracy theory bucket...

What if someone in the world was deeply concerned that overpopulation had led to man-made climate change and future generations would find the planet nearly uninhabitable and the only way out is to shut down manufacturing, transportation, and reduce the global population? What if they had hundreds of deadly viruses in a lab and figured out which one would reduce the elderly population but preserve youth and cause society to shut themselves down to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

Totally unbelievable, right?
You are too late. The inferno by Dan Brown has exactly that plot. Also a movie if you prefer.
 

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