Elon says AWD and Perf orders start at end of next week!

[Garlan Garner]

Here is an honest answer for the $35k Model 3 directly from Elon:

With production, 1st you need achieve target rate & then smooth out flow to achieve target cost. Shipping min cost Model 3 right away wd cause Tesla to lose money & die. Need 3 to 6 months after 5k/wk to ship $35k Tesla & live.

As I've stated a few times.....the pricepoint for the bare bones model 3 isn't enough for Tesla to survive making the 35k version. .

 

[ConcordeSST]

Actually.....they have NOT rolled out the Performance THE SAME WAY .

Check out people who have been able to configure so far. Example: Ryan McCaffery being one has already configured. He IS NOT an employee. He IS NOT a line waiter. He IS NOT a current owner.

Just to be fair, I'm fairly certain that Ryan configured through the account of a current owner based on his comment here.

Thanks to a huge favor from a friend, I've got a Performance model ordered (red paint, 20" Sport wheels, white interior).

I am only guessing though.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Just to be fair, I'm fairly certain that Ryan configured through the account of a current owner based on his comment here.



I am only guessing though.

You are probably right.

I didn't think Tesla would allow you to transfer ownership of a reservation, however I haven't done any research on whether you can or can't do that. No worries either way.

It's just that.....I can't figure out if anyone else has a problem with not being able to configure their performance Model 3. Its been very quiet on that front.

 

[Petra]

Sooo.... Fun tidbit: apparently, Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires (same tire that's on the 20" wheels) are available in the correct size to fit the 18" Aero wheels and they're cheaper than the stock MXM4s. Given that the 20" wheels in the Tesla store include 235 width tires (same width as the Aeros), why bother with the wagon wheels on the performance car when you could have performance with minimal range impact?

https://m.tirerack.com/tires/tires....&autoYear=2018&autoModel=Model+3&autoModClar=

 

[rluciano]

You are probably right.

I didn't think Tesla would allow you to transfer ownership of a reservation, however I haven't done any research on whether you can or can't do that. No worries either way.

It's just that.....I can't figure out if anyone else has a problem with not being able to configure their performance Model 3. Its been very quiet on that front.

It seems weird to me. I am a current and former Model S owner, reserved day of announcement online before reveal. I would think I'd be able to configure, even if the wait is long.

 

[TT97]

Sooo.... Fun tidbit: apparently, Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires (same tire that's on the 20" wheels) are available in the correct size to fit the 18" Aero wheels and they're cheaper than the stock MXM4s. Given that the 20" wheels in the Tesla store include 235 width tires (same width as the Aeros), why bother with the wagon wheels on the performance car when you could have performance with minimal range impact?

https://m.tirerack.com/tires/tires....&autoYear=2018&autoModel=Model+3&autoModClar=

The PS4 are listed in the Owner's Manual as OEM option for the 18"s (naturally, they don't ship with them currently). They may have them OEM if you select the 18s on the P.

 

[Nathan]

It doesn't obviously solve the problem of the timing of when people can configure, but i was a non-owner, and the 3rd person on the line in Brooklyn, New York, and was allowed to configure my AWD yesterday late afternoon.

 

[Venomized]

I had access to configure and showed all the options. After debating if I wanted performance or not, I decided I would just stick to AWD. I went to the checkout page and submitted it and got an error. I refreshed the page and all the performance and AWD options were gone and haven’t seen it since. I’m a non owner, online first day reservation holder who has configured already with no VIN though. I just wanted to upgrade to AWD. Makes me wonder had not taken the extra 10-15 minutes to decide if my order would have gone through. I believe there may have been a really smalll window for people who had lower priority had a chance to reserve a perofmrnave or AWD if they got it in fast enough.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

If there is a belief that 310 range for 3LR should actually be higher, then 310 for 3LRD simply doesn’t make sense at all.

3LRD should get 340 miles if you consider how much more S85D gets over S85.

No, that's not how it works. The S had two distinct opportunities to achieve higher range with D models:

• 2nd generation small induction motor was quite a bit more efficient than 1st generation large induction motor. Model S 85 with single 1st-gen large induction motor in rear is difficult to drive and get below 300 Wh/mi. Dual-2nd generation small motors on 85D routinely can get 280 Wh/mi.
• Taller gearing of front motor and torque sleep of rear motor improve efficiency.

These opportunities are not present in the Model 3.

• PMSR motor in rear of 3LR is already Tesla's most efficient motor.
• Adding 2nd motor on front axle increases weight.
• Because on 3LRD, the front motor will be an induction motor, to gain efficiency they will torque sleep front motor and let rear PMSR motor apply power when cruising on 3LRD, this offers no advantage over 3LR.
• Since front motor will be used for acceleration and power maneuvers only, you can't gear it taller, so no advantage there.

I bet against that. The switched reluctance partial permanent magnet motor in the back will take 70% of the power as it is easier to cool, the induction front motor is only for short intervals full power acceleration as it will overheat easily (as with the Model S).

PMSR is not "easier to cool", it's that it doesn't get hot in the first place.

I thought the S and X overheat because they run the rotor cooling loop after the inverter. Seems like something that could have been fixed on the 3, unless they are using the same front motor/inverter from the S/X.

That's one reason the rotor cooling capacity is small, but another reason is simply the low flow rate. You just can't get that much coolant flowing through the inverter and rotor at a time. This is why the induction motors in S, X, and front motor of 3D cannot output high power for more than a few minutes, because rotor overheats and must wait for air cooling to cool it down. 3 rear motor is PMSR, not induction, has no current flow through the rotor, only magnetic flux, so it doesn't get hot. I would not be surprised if there is no liquid rotor cooling on the 3's PMSR at all, since it's hardly needed.

Seriously compare the cost, range and performance of the LR M3 to the 75D S and 100D S. It’s not good for the S. The P3M3 can’t be so good it canibilises the P100D - at least not right now.

Tesla either beefs up the S significantly or loses share to the 3. The S is going to HAVE to be better than what it is now.

I agree here -- to differentiate the S, Tesla will need to bring interior luxury up to better compete with A8, 7-series, S-class. There are some people who want the large touring sedan that is heavy on creature comforts, e.g. heated & cooled seats, massaging seats, full leather, inlaid wood, etc.

I think it's natural for Tesla as a company to have first introduced the S without those items to reduce complexity and cost while the 3 was in development. Now that the 3 is ramping up, there is now room to differentiate the S and avoid top-end Model 3's competing with low-end Model S's.

 

[mongo]

There is no liquid cooling of the rotor, it is not possible to pipe liquid coolant into the rotor. The entire drive unit is cooled via liquid cooling into the stator and into the inverter. Rotor is air-cooled only. This is why induction motors in S, X, and front motor of 3D cannot output high power for more than a few minutes, because rotor overheats and must wait for air cooling to cool it down. 3 rear motor is PMSR, not induction, has no current flow through the rotor, only magnetic flux, so it doesn't get hot.

The shaft is hollow , co-axial liquid cooling.

Patent:
US7579725B2 - Liquid cooled rotor assembly - Google Patents
tear down:
Inside the Model S High Efficiency "Next-Gen" Drive Unit

 

[CdgaBill]

It doesn't obviously solve the problem of the timing of when people can configure, but i was a non-owner, and the 3rd person on the line in Brooklyn, New York, and was allowed to configure my AWD yesterday late afternoon.

I think we'll probably need to get some updates to something like the tracking sheet for the folks that were successful to look for any rhyme/reason beyond what we can guess from the few posts. Nevertheless, a couple of quick questions...
1) Did you get an email that your AWD config would be available, or just notice by trying?
2) Did you notice whether the 20" wheels were available to you? I've seen screenshots of them as standard on the performance, but haven't seen screenshots of a "non-P" AWD config to know whether they exist there as a choice.

I can't wait to be able to config, but my wallet probably will actually thank me. While I was up all night trying over and over from Saturday to Sunday and would have pulled the trigger on "P" then - I think I've talked to myself down to lots of things I'd rather spend that 20K on (unless some more info comes out on other upgrades included, but not yet mentioned).

 

[sitter_k]

What do you think tesla is doing? I can't figure it out.

Pulling Reservation numbers out of a hat

 

[Nathan]

I think we'll probably need to get some updates to something like the tracking sheet for the folks that were successful to look for any rhyme/reason beyond what we can guess from the few posts. Nevertheless, a couple of quick questions...
1) Did you get an email that your AWD config would be available, or just notice by trying?
2) Did you notice whether the 20" wheels were available to you? I've seen screenshots of them as standard on the performance, but haven't seen screenshots of a "non-P" AWD config to know whether they exist there as a choice.

I can't wait to be able to config, but my wallet probably will actually thank me. While I was up all night trying over and over from Saturday to Sunday and would have pulled the trigger on "P" then - I think I've talked to myself down to lots of things I'd rather spend that 20K on (unless some more info comes out on other upgrades included, but not yet mentioned).

1. I did not get an email. Just kept trying every # of hours.
2. Did not notice about the 20" wheels. Sorry.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

The shaft is hollow , co-axial liquid cooling.

Patent:
US7579725B2 - Liquid cooled rotor assembly - Google Patents
tear down:
Inside the Model S High Efficiency "Next-Gen" Drive Unit

Revised my statement -- thank you. I didn't know Tesla bothered to do liquid rotor cooling in the induction motors, looks like they did. However, flow rate is low, so it still overheats. However, it can cool down faster than an air-cooled rotor.

I bet the 3 PMSR doesn't use liquid rotor cooling, though. It doesn't need it, and cost can be reduced without it.

 

[Electroman]

So, I reserved online the first day in 2016, non-owner in NC, got the email to configure 4/18, and did. No VIN yet. Now, the dual motor is available. I called Tesla yesterday to inquire about changing my configuration to dual motor, and they said I could, would keep my original RN and line position to configure, but that I should expect 9 months to delivery, and oops, may not get the tax credit.

Now I am seeing first day reservers, even non-owners, getting to configure with dual motor, and the Tesla website quotes 6-9 months to delivery for NEW RESERVATIONS.

So, was the Tesla guy just blowing smoke, giving me a standard line designed to try to keep me with my current config, or just uninformed? Or, would I go to the back of the line?

I really want to Dual, but would probably skip it if I'd lose the tax credit.

Any and all speculation is welcome here.

I hate the Tesla guys who say random stuff like these. There is no way it should take 9 months for delivery if you confirm today.

 

[Need]

Maybe it is kind of like buying super popular concert tickets. You just have to keep refreshing and hope you don't get error out during the checkout process. Wait, it is EXACTLY like that.

 

[ccutrer]

I think we'll probably need to get some updates to something like the tracking sheet for the folks that were successful to look for any rhyme/reason beyond what we can guess from the few posts. Nevertheless, a couple of quick questions...
1) Did you get an email that your AWD config would be available, or just notice by trying?
2) Did you notice whether the 20" wheels were available to you? I've seen screenshots of them as standard on the performance, but haven't seen screenshots of a "non-P" AWD config to know whether they exist there as a choice.

I can't wait to be able to config, but my wallet probably will actually thank me. While I was up all night trying over and over from Saturday to Sunday and would have pulled the trigger on "P" then - I think I've talked to myself down to lots of things I'd rather spend that 20K on (unless some more info comes out on other upgrades included, but not yet mentioned).

I didn't get screenshots while I had access, but I'm pretty sure on 2), when I switched back to AWD from performance, my wheel options went back to 18/19.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Here is an honest answer for the $35k Model 3 directly from Elon:

With production, 1st you need achieve target rate & then smooth out flow to achieve target cost. Shipping min cost Model 3 right away wd cause Tesla to lose money & die. Need 3 to 6 months after 5k/wk to ship $35k Tesla & live.

As I've stated a few times.....the pricepoint for the bare bones model 3 isn't enough for Tesla to survive making the 35k version. .

I don't think the 35K itself isn't break even, it's just not enough margin to pay for building the car itself and also contribute meaningfully to cash flow, which they need. So once they knock down their debts a bit further with the better margins of the LR variants, they'll be fine to build 35's with relatively thin but not non-existent margins.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I don't think the 35K itself isn't break even, it's just not enough margin to pay for building the car itself and also contribute meaningfully to cash flow, which they need. So once they knock down their debts a bit further with the better margins of the LR variants, they'll be fine to build 35's with relatively thin but not non-existent margins.

Break even? I'm not sure what you mean. I didn't mention break even.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Break even? I'm not sure what you mean. I didn't mention break even.

You said the $35K isn't enough for Tesla to survive making it, which I took to imply you feel it will have close to zero or negative margins and building it ever would lead to financial ruin. I'm saying that I don't interpret Elon's remark that way, that instead it's low enough that they need to finish paying off all their CapEx for the vehicle & etc using the higher margin LR models, before they can profitably build the minimum margin $35k vehicles - but that there has to be at least some profit to be had from them, otherwise they wouldn't offer them at that price. Doing so just requires a paid off and well oiled production machine.