Elon says AWD and Perf orders start at end of next week!

[GatorGuy]

A performance Model 3 should actually be a performance car, not just fast to 60. Better brakes, suspension, seats, wider fenders.

A performance 3 will likely have none of that except for maybe bugger brakes. Otherwise it'll be the same. That is just how Tesla does things. The S and X performance models are $40k more and the only thing you get is red calipers and ludicrous acceleration. Doubt they break from that for their cheaper model.

That said, all we need from Tesla is insane acceleration. Everything else is tunable by aftermarket. Of which I'm sure there will be plenty because the 3 presents an opportunity as an actually trackable car in ways the S can't.

 

[juanmedina]

Unfair comparison. How much money does it cost to jump from A4 to S4?

This is just another package on top of the S4.

It seems that the suspension is the same the A4 has the and option of dropping the car down 23mm and it cost $750 + you get some extra stuff with the package.

The AWD A4 is 40k and the S4 starts at 51k.

 

[ecarfan]

What are the horrible odds that he isn't listing two independent options, and we have to get Performance-Dual Motor?

The odds are zero.

They will be two separate options, just like on the S/X.

 

[TT97]

It seems that the suspension is the same the A4 has the and option of dropping the car down 23mm and it cost $750 + you get some extra stuff with the package.

The AWD A4 is 40k and the S4 starts at 51k.

The S4 is not the M3 or C63 competitor, their RS4 is, which they currently do not sell (or at least not in the U.S.). The A4 to S4 is equivalent of going Model 3 SR to LR, or BMW 330 to 340.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

It seems that the suspension is the same the A4 has the and option of dropping the car down 23mm and it cost $750 + you get some extra stuff with the package.

The AWD A4 is 40k and the S4 starts at 51k.

Yea, that's the important one. The engines are different (4cyl in the A4 and 6cyl in the S4). Suspension is different, brakes are bigger. It's actually a $15K difference between the 2 with no other options added.

Similar to the step up from the 3LRD and the 3PLRD.

 

[juanmedina]

The S4 is not the M3 or C63 competitor, their RS4 is, which they currently do not sell (or at least not in the U.S.). The A4 to S4 is equivalent of going Model 3 SR to LR, or BMW 330 to 340.

Not really the 320i is the SR model 3

I wasn't comparing the S4 to the P75D; just posting the cost of the dynamic suspension package for reference.

 

[voip-ninja]

The S4 is not the M3 or C63 competitor, their RS4 is, which they currently do not sell (or at least not in the U.S.). The A4 to S4 is equivalent of going Model 3 SR to LR, or BMW 330 to 340.

The A4/S4 has a lot more differences than being described in this thread.

The S4 has a variety of engine/transmission/intake/exhaust differences that can be summed up as “faster” for layman comparison purposes.

It also has much better seats, brakes, sport suspension, nicer wheels, numerous exterior differences including aerodynamic body kit, etc.

If Tesla charges 10K more for a slightly faster 0-60 time and somewhat upgraded brakes compared to the LR DM version it will be greatly lagging what their competitors do when upgrading from 340i to M3 or A4 to S4 or C300 to AMG C43 for $10,000.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

The A4/S4 has a lot more differences than being described in this thread.

The A4 has a variety of engine/transmission/intake/exhaust differences that can be summed up as “faster” for layman comparison purposes.

It also has much better seats, brakes, sport suspension, nicer wheels, numerous exterior differences including aerodynamic body kit, etc.

If Tesla charges 10K more for a slightly faster 0-60 time and somewhat upgraded brakes compared to the LR DM version it will be greatly lagging what their competitors do when upgrading from 340i to M3 or A4 to S4 or C300 to AMG C63 for $10,000.

Depends. It can be argued that the "base" 3 is comparable to a base A4. The LR RWD and the LR AWD are intermediate steps, until you get to the Performance.

So SR, RWD - $35,000
SR, AWD- $49,000-ish (we might not know this until SR is available)
LR, RWD - $44,000
LR, AWD - $49,500 (TBD-we'll find out Friday.)

(all prices are not counting wheels, paint, interior upgrades, white interior, etc....just battery and drivetrain)


The A4 starts at $36,000 and has a few upgrades and options. The S4 starts at $51,000 and has some more options. Seems like the Model 3 and A4/S4 stack up decently side-by-side price wise.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

It's a bit more than a "slight gain" in efficiency.

In the Model 3, I'm not sure there's going to be much efficiency gain with AWD. In the Model S, there were several places where AWD could result in an efficiency gain:

• Going from the large 1st-generation motor in the RWD to the dual smaller 2nd-generation motors in the AWD.
• The induction motors in the Model S are lower efficiency to begin with.
• The ability to gear the front motor different from the rear motor, and torque sleep the rear motor when cruising.
• The Model S already weighs a lot, the additional weight from a 2nd motor is proportionally less.

These opportunities are mostly absent in the Model 3:

• The PMSR motor in the Model 3 is already a very efficient motor.
• The PMSR motor only has a very limited ability to torque sleep due to the permanent magnets inside.
• The 2nd motor will add a proportionally larger amount of weight to the Model 3.

These factors make me think that the efficiency gain from AWD in the Model 3 will be minimal.

Tesla could gain a much better ability to torque sleep the rear motor and gain the efficiency that way if the rear motor became an induction motor rather than a PMSR, and indeed this is what I expect them to do with the performance version of the Model 3. But for cost reasons, I think the non-performance version will use two of the PMSRs, and gain very little efficiency.

 

[PhaseWhite]

The A4/S4 has a lot more differences than being described in this thread.

The S4 has a variety of engine/transmission/intake/exhaust differences that can be summed up as “faster” for layman comparison purposes.

It also has much better seats, brakes, sport suspension, nicer wheels, numerous exterior differences including aerodynamic body kit, etc.

If Tesla charges 10K more for a slightly faster 0-60 time and somewhat upgraded brakes compared to the LR DM version it will be greatly lagging what their competitors do when upgrading from 340i to M3 or A4 to S4 or C300 to AMG C43 for $10,000.

The S4 can do 0-60 in 4.2, this is probably closer to what the AWD M3 will be capable of. M3P should be in the 3s, so it's quite a bit faster.
Tesla will charge what the market will pay and they desperately need the cash right now. Probably more like 20k than 10k and it will include upgraded performance, brakes, wheels and some trim parts, similar to the P100D.

 

[GatorGuy]

If Tesla charges 10K more for a slightly faster 0-60 time and somewhat upgraded brakes compared to the LR DM version it will be greatly lagging what their competitors do when upgrading from 340i to M3 or A4 to S4 or C300 to AMG C43 for $10,000.

That is exactly what Tesla did with the P100D X & S which are much more expensive vehicles than a P3D. No idea why you would expect more on a cheaper vehicle.

 

[voip-ninja]

That is exactly what Tesla did with the P100D X & S which are much more expensive vehicles than a P3D. No idea why you would expect more on a cheaper vehicle.

I guess we’ll find out what the demand is then.

 

[pnd4pnd]

I'd also love to see a matte black option for the performance version in addition to better seats.

 

[jelloslug]

In the Model 3, I'm not sure there's going to be much efficiency gain with AWD. In the Model S, there were several places where AWD could result in an efficiency gain:

• Going from the large 1st-generation motor in the RWD to the dual smaller 2nd-generation motors in the AWD.
• The induction motors in the Model S are lower efficiency to begin with.
• The ability to gear the front motor different from the rear motor, and torque sleep the rear motor when cruising.
• The Model S already weighs a lot, the additional weight from a 2nd motor is proportionally less.

These opportunities are mostly absent in the Model 3:

• The PMSR motor in the Model 3 is already a very efficient motor.
• The PMSR motor only has a very limited ability to torque sleep due to the permanent magnets inside.
• The 2nd motor will add a proportionally larger amount of weight to the Model 3.

These factors make me think that the efficiency gain from AWD in the Model 3 will be minimal.

Tesla could gain a much better ability to torque sleep the rear motor and gain the efficiency that way if the rear motor became an induction motor rather than a PMSR, and indeed this is what I expect them to do with the performance version of the Model 3. But for cost reasons, I think the non-performance version will use two of the PMSRs, and gain very little efficiency.

If the AWD Model 3 uses two smaller motors vs one big one in the RWD version, you could see the bigger gains at highway speeds like you do in the Model S, if not, it will be more like the difference between the P versions.

 

[Daniel in SD]

That is exactly what Tesla did with the P100D X & S which are much more expensive vehicles than a P3D. No idea why you would expect more on a cheaper vehicle.

I don’t expect it but I would like the performance version to compete with the BMW M3. We shall see. At least the test cars spotted a while back had bigger brakes.

I’m going on record to say that the dual motor will not have better efficiency. For all the reasons @SomeJoe7777 listed.

 

[jelloslug]

I don’t expect it but I would like the performance version to compete with the BMW M3. We shall see. At least the test cars spotted a while back had bigger brakes.

I’m going on record to say that the dual motor will not have better efficiency. For all the reasons @SomeJoe7777 listed.

Bigger brakes or red brakes?

 

[Garlan Garner]

If the AWD Model 3 uses two smaller motors vs one big one in the RWD version, you could see the bigger gains at highway speeds like you do in the Model S, if not, it will be more like the difference between the P versions.

I can't see that. That would mean that another motor would have to be built.

I believe it will be like the Model S.....one option = dual motor....

Manufacturing is going to have to remain simple with the fewest variations. I see 2 of the current motors.

 

[jelloslug]

I can't see that. That would mean that another motor would have to be built.

I believe it will be like the Model S.....one option = dual motor....

Manufacturing is going to have to remain simple with the fewest variations. I see 2 of the current motors.

Something is going to have to be different for there to be two variants of the AWD models. My though would be that the non P version would have two small motors, and the P version would have the small one in the front and the RWD motor in the rear.

 

[GatorGuy]

I can't see that. That would mean that another motor would have to be built.

I believe it will be like the Model S.....one option = dual motor....

Manufacturing is going to have to remain simple with the fewest variations. I see 2 of the current motors.

100D and P100D have different motors. The rear motor is larger in the P car.

Unless I'm not understanding what you mean by one option.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Something is going to have to be different for there to be two variants of the AWD models. My though would be that the non P version would have two small motors, and the P version would have the small one in the front and the RWD motor in the rear.

Wait.....why would there be 2 versions of the P version?