TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Elon Tweet: Model 3

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by jimmyjohn, Sep 2, 2015.

  1. MassModel3

    MassModel3 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2014
    Messages:
    907
    Location:
    MA South Shore
    It was nothing personal against you, but in so many posts for the Tesla 3 and the X there are discussions about size that comes down to a few inches one way or another (in a different context that could have a completely different meaning) and I just don't get it. Yeah, I totally get that in Europe smaller cars are often more able to get around, but my point is that discussions of whether it will look like Car A at xxx inches or Car B at zzz inches seems silly. Certainly the 3 will be less wide and less long than the S, and probably a little taller to accommodate a more upright seating position (since there's less leg room to work with in a shorter car). I just tend to gloss right past the numbers when people start speculating down to the inches about how long the future models will be.

    That being said, and going back to your intent for that post, at a glance I always assumed the Volt was actually longer than the BMW 3 so I guess your point was made and was, in fact, useful. :smile:
     
  2. mwulff

    mwulff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2015
    Messages:
    348
    Location:
    Danmark
    +100000 on this one. The size really is a limiting factor in Model S adoption. I will be happy when we can downtrade to a smaller Model 3.
     
  3. Alfred

    Alfred Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    Zurich
    Size is the most frequently heard obstacle to an S purchase I hear in Switzerland too. The practical limit to width is probably at around 1.8m (71", without mirrors). Otherwise e.g. parking gets difficult and if parked you may have to crawl out through the back hatch.
    In Italy and Spain the problem is even more acute and I drove also this summer a Seat Ibiza in Spain instead of its larger brother, the Leon (VW Golf size). Note that a Jaguar X Type was 1.79m wide - a still very comfortably sized car.
     
  4. MassModel3

    MassModel3 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2014
    Messages:
    907
    Location:
    MA South Shore
    Here in the US, it seems to be the land of "bigger is better." SUV's and pickup trucks especially. Oddly enough, I don't hear much "wow, that's a big car" when talking to people about the S. Admittedly, we're a big car society here in the states.

    I get terribly frustrated being behind a moving wall on the interstate -- oversized cars you just can't see around. Needless to say, parking is still tight so I always park my S at the back at the lot when going most anywhere. But then you have the jerk who parks right next to you when there's 10 or 20 empty spaces heading toward the store. But I think a lot of that is people parking close just to check out the car, then not moving afterwards. Still...

    Per a CNBC article last year: 61.5 percent of the vehicles GM has sold this year are trucks, SUVs or crossovers.

    Yeah, we're big on big here.
     
  5. Candleflame

    Candleflame Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,897
    Location:
    QLD, Australia
    @ Mass Model 3, you have a lot of massive cars (I'm thinking of a few cars from the 70s and 80s you see in a lot of hip hop flicks) which you could never drive in europe apart from maybe the north and germany as there simply isn't enough space. SUVs are changing this somewhat though, but they have only really been a common sight for the last 3 years or so. Like I said before, Model S does not fit into a standard uk parking spot. Don't get me started on trying to parallel park this car.

    We already have problems here with some roads where 2 SUVs simply don't really fit next to each other on the road (you can note this easily by seeing that their inside wheel is going over the white lane seperation lane on the road)
     
  6. TEG

    TEG Teslafanatic

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    21,394
    #106 TEG, Sep 8, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2015
    I agree. Around here, I see Model S park using two spots, or squished in too tight because they can't fit in many of the "Compact" parking spaces.
    Same with larger trucks.

    hummer-in-a-compact-parking-space.jpg

    20140323_080204_parkingspace_300.jpg

    6a00d8341c57bd53ef013487752210970c-pi.jpg

    compact.jpg
    car-photo-2005-chevrolet-yukon-compact-parking-spot-fail.jpg


    It is far too frequent that I can barely open my door and have trouble squeezing out of the small opening because the vehicles on either side use part of the space.

    mods-1.png
     
  7. strider

    strider Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    3,480
    Location:
    NE Oklahoma
    Model S is my wife's and weekend family hauler. Model 3 will be my commute car and will be an upgrade from my Roadster. I often need to be on conference calls while driving and the Roadster is useless in that regard. It'll also be nice to be able to haul kids if necessary (as it is if my wife has to work late I have to drive to her work, switch cars, then pick up the kids.

    Finally, a P90DL Model 3 will absolutely crush the Roadster in all performance metrics.
     
  8. igotzzoom

    igotzzoom Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,217
    Location:
    Mission Viejo, CA
    Between size and cost, cost is the bigger obstacle for me right now with the Model S. However, I've generally owned smaller cars. Coming from a Mazda Protegé 5 to my Sonata, the Sonata felt like a Town Car after I first got it. I don't see myself owning a car significantly larger than the Sonata as a daily driver.
     
  9. AustinPowers

    AustinPowers Total Smeghead

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    2,063
    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    #109 AustinPowers, Sep 9, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2015
    Quite so. I have been on holiday to England and Wales for about four weeks each from 1979 to 1998 and have very fond memories of driving along many narrow roads (especially in Wales) where it was difficult even for two Austin Metros (our US friends might not know that car but suffice it to say for their size standards it could be called microscopic ;-) ) to pass each other. I was thinking about that picture the other day when I saw Bob Llewellyn making his Model S road trip through Wales to the Centre for Alternative Energy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    True, and I think that is one thing Elon hadn't envisioned when he originally planned to sell 10k Model S per year in Germany. The car is just far too big for our road infrastructure in most parts.
     
  10. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    3,033
    Location:
    Los Angeles CA
    Just start putting the money away. A little at a time. It isn't that hard. Either $250, or $500 per month, until the reveal in March 2016. If you aren't sure then, just keep putting the cash away.

    You won't have to worry about the base model going away. That will be taken care of by fleet sales. The Model ≡ will be very popular with taxi companies, car rental firms, and municipal services. They will be happy to order an American car in droves. Basic white or black, with the range to drive around town all day for pennies.

    For a given capacity, the Model ≡ will actually have a greater range than a Model S. You won't have to worry about this at all.

    If it is that much of a hardship, they should not do it. I have always had a rule for major expenditures. If I cannot buy it outright, I probably can't afford it. To make sure I can afford it, I don't buy it until I have at least three times the amount of cash on hand. That way, once I buy it, I won't feel broke.

    Think of this as the opportunity to 'buy' a Reservation. If you don't have $7,500 to $15,000 cash on hand, you can't afford to make a deposit of $2,500 to $5,000. If that is the case, leave the Reservation on the shelf and invest wisely.

    No. It is actually the strongest link in the longterm plan. It will continue to be supported by sales of Generation II vehicles, Model S and Model X, well after the launch of Model ≡.

    Absolutely not. That would ruin everything. There is a reason why 100% of Tesla Motors products currently include Supercharger access as standard. That reason is not exclusivity. The reason is ubiquity. It is also uniformity. K.I.S.S. Principal Personified.

    No activation fee. No bills. No subscription fees. No swiping or tapping of cards or RFIDs. "Free... (of additional charge) for LIFE (the life of the car)!" Period.

    Though I agree the potential for sales of Model ≡ are certainly enormous in Europe, I am rather perplexed by your reasoning. See, people keep telling us that the Model S is 'too small' compared to the extended wheelbase cars from AUDI, BMW, Porsche, and Mercedes-Benz. How the heck do people get around in the A8 L, 7-Series L, Panamera Executive, and S600 in Europe? Those cars are WAY bigger than the Model S. The sentiment seems rather disingenuous when it comes to the size/shape/heft of American cars.

    And, let's face it, the BMW 3-Series is far bigger than it ever was before today. And it's a better car as a result. They aren't ugly anymore, for one thing. I hope no one expects a Golf or Clio sized product from Tesla Motors anytime soon... Because the Model ≡ will NOT be it.
     
  11. MassModel3

    MassModel3 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2014
    Messages:
    907
    Location:
    MA South Shore
    Wow. Put away $500 a month? You make it sound so easy. For people who don't currently have a car payment, this is just the monthly payment for the car ($35K for 72 months at 3% is $532) set aside in advance. But folks who are currently paying on a lease or loan and who are waiting to trade up to the Model 3 are not likely to just have another $500 a month of spare cash. I think that the average household is only going to have, at most, $100 or so that they can squeeze out.

    A 2013 CNN article writes:
    Roughly three-quarters of Americans are living paycheck-to-paycheck, with little to no emergency savings, according to a survey released by Bankrate.com Monday.

    Fewer than one in four Americans have enough money in their savings account to cover at least six months of expenses, enough to help cushion the blow of a job loss, medical emergency or some other unexpected event, according to the survey of 1,000 adults. Meanwhile, 50% of those surveyed have less than a three-month cushion and 27% had no savings at all.

    I get your overall point, though -- start saving now. But this is supposed to be the first iteration of the people's car -- the electric that anybody can afford. But realistically it's not the car that everyone will be able to afford (sadly). It will simply be more affordable than the S and the X.
     
  12. AustinPowers

    AustinPowers Total Smeghead

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    2,063
    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    Who from Europe keeps telling the Model S is too small? I have never heard anyone say that, only the contrary statement. Please quote me one forum member from a European country who has ever stated that. I don't think you will be able to find even one, let alone a handful.

    And as for those long-wheelbase versions of the German luxury cars, those are an even rarer sight on our roads than a Model S. And for the same reason, inner city driving and parking would be a nuisance at best. If at all, those cars are sold purely for long range executive travel over the Autobahn, or perhaps for chauffeur services.
    And actually, quite a few long wheelbase versions aren't even available in Europe, but rather only in markets like China or the Middle East (and some in the US), exactly because they just wouldn't sell well enough over here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Same here in Germany. Everone thinks that Germany is a "rich" country, yet a large percentage of the population falls in the category of that CNN article.
    Putting away $500 a month is not something you just do, unless you have a really well-paying job (and not many other monthly financial obligations).

    - - - Updated - - -

    What? So you would have saved up about 300k $ before you bought a Model S or X? Or 100k+ $ for a Model 3?
    I don't know anyone who would - or could - do that with any larger (i.e. >10k) purchase.
     
  13. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    3,033
    Location:
    Los Angeles CA
    My first job out of college paid $2,000 per month gross. I saved $500 per month in cash. Yes. A full 25% of my income. It was easy. Of course, I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, or gamble. I was not married. I had no children. And I despise being broke. So, for me, it was easy. All it takes is dedication, patience, and a modicum of self control.

    I am vehemently opposed to leases and loans. Mostly because I don't like paying interest. If it were ordinary, everyday, straight, and honest, simple interest, I'd be good. But from my perspective amortized lending is the spawn of the devil.

    Again, if you are unable to save at least 25% of your income if you want to... You are either not making enough money... Or you are spending far too much of it. Cut back, sacrifice, learn to live with what you have, and get what you want later.

    The problem with the 'average household' is that so many people have been brainwashed into adopting the 'I can make the payments...' principal of finance. They simply refuse to live within their means. They are in debt up to their eyeballs and are comfortable in that position. I am not.

    Again... Do you want to be able to afford the 'payments' or the 'product'...? Too many people lose sight of that. They simply want to acquire things, so they can proclaim, "Look what I got!" They don't consider that having is not the same as owning. Or, that getting, is not the same as affording. If there are repossession agents that have you on speed dial, you can't afford it.



    My current biggest regret is that when I learned that Tesla Motors intended to build what was termed in automobile magazines a 'luxury sports sedan' as their second car... I stopped following the company entirely. I despise luxury cars in general, and sports sedans in particular.

    I spent the Summer of 1985 working for my Uncle's company. I washed and detailed cars at a condominium complex in Beverly Hills. So I saw all the luxury marques up close and personal, while still in my teens. I was not particularly impressed. I determined that everyone was doing a riff, their own interpretation, of design themes from Rolls-Royce. Some just flat out copied Rolls-Royce in everything from woodgrain, to switchgear, to the central clock on the dash -- only with poor materials. Plastic instead of chrome. Vinyl instead of leather. Synthetics instead of wool. And all of this hearkened back to the very beginnings of automobiles as literal horseless carriages. That disgusted me then, and still does.

    I have always thought BMWs were ugly as sin (They actually have looked OK, since about 2012 -- but traditional BMW fans don't like them now. HAH!). That they were advertised as 'THE ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE' was offensive to me. Still is... So, with their cars being the poster children for the 'sports sedan' I was put off by a long shot. And, I noticed a progression... Mercedes-Benz wanted to be Rolls-Royce when they grew up... BMW wanted to prove they could one-up Mercedes-Benz... Volkswagen's primary excuse for existence was BMW... And all of their cars were gawdawful ugly. I had no idea why these vehicles were so revered in Los Angeles, and I didn't care. I knew they weren't for me.

    Had I been paying attention, despite my personal prejudice against the 'luxury sports sedan' concept... Even in late 2011 or early 2012, I probably would have picked up 500 shares of TSLA. DOH! Then I would have kicked myself later for not getting 1,000 instead. ;-)



    I'll admit, this is probably a very AMERICAN-centric point of view regarding the Model S... There was one article written were someone absolutely tore into the Model S for not being 'luxurious' enough... The guy on purpose grabbed the most expensive iteration of the AUDI A8 L and began to rave about how much better it was than the Model S. Never mind that he purposely fudged the range of the diesel powered AUDI to extreme levels, embarrassing himself more than Tesla Motors... Or that he flat out dismissed the comparative fuel cost of diesel versus electricity, especially with the Tesla Supercharger network expansion... Or that the performance of the diesel was woefully less than the gasoline AUDI -- which got its [BUM] handed to it by pretty much every iteration of the Model S.

    I have seen similar sentiments expressed, in two different ways...

    1) Some refuse to accept that the Model S competes with the Mercedes-Benz S-Class, and repeatedly act as if it should be compared to the E-Class instead. (Somehow, they always forget about the CLS-Class...)

    2) Others repeatedly express their dismay over the conspicuous absence of 'essentials' such as lighted vanity mirrors, storage bins, grab handles, map pockets, folding armrests, and a plethora of other doohickies carried over from a stagecoach and team of six. They claim there isn't enough head room or leg room and a 'real luxury car' should have a separate trunk instead of a hatchback and that Tesla Motors should immediately introduce a stretched, extended version because there is 'no way' that anyone in search of true opulence would be interested in their cars, and they are sure to 'lose sales' as a result.

    OK. That makes sense. Thanks for the sense of perspective on this.

    No. That's what I would have done in my early twenties. As I got older, more used to saving, I actually raised the limits gradually. From 3:1, to 4:1, to 8:1... Today, I would recommend not buying unless I have twelve times as much cash on hand.

    ~*ducks*~

    Look, either you can afford something, or you can't. If you want to buy a $150,000 car, and you don't have $1,800,000 in assets... You may be making a mistake. Because really, you can probably find a car for 1/3rd the price that has 90%-95% of the performance, luxury, and convenience features. You are just buying a brand, a label, and nothing more... Unless, of course, it happens to be a Tesla Motors product. So buy two!

    :-D
     
  14. MassModel3

    MassModel3 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2014
    Messages:
    907
    Location:
    MA South Shore
    You say that as if everyone has a choice. Granted, many do, but unfortunately most do not. People buy a house because it's an investment in the future, whereas renting is basically throwing your money away. Most have to setup multi-year mortgages to do so. People need transportation to work and not everybody has the cash lying around for a debt-free car, hence loan payments. Feed the kids, pay the utilities, buy clothing and other basic necessities. You make it sound so easy to save up front and pay cash-only for purchases. In an ideal world, that's probably most people's dream, but frequently that's all it will remain.

    You're implying that if those here in these forums are not at the income level where they can squirrel away $50K or $100K, they need to change their lifestyles and life priorities or forget about Tesla for a while. I think that's a very closed off way of looking at the people around you. If car payments can reasonably fit into someone's standard of living, and that someone ends up happy as a result of buying that car (even though they'll be paying on it for the next 6 years), good on 'em. It's about being happy with the here and now. You only live once, after all. Enjoy it.

    Obviously you and I are not at all aligned on this thinking, but I'm certainly not going to apply my own situation to everyone else, nor should you. I say do what makes you happy, just don't stretch yourself beyond your means and regret it later.

    On the other hand, it KILLS me that I can drive through the local low income subsidized housing areas and see BMW's, Cadillacs, and various other $40K-plus vehicles in the lots. The state needs to help them pay their rent but they drive these? Geeze!! Somewhere there's a major loophole that needs to be closed.
     
  15. kevincwelch

    kevincwelch Active Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2012
    Messages:
    2,056
    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Did you buy your house "outright"? Your rules don't seem to apply to the vast majority - many of who live within their means doing the traditional accepted lease/loan route.
     
  16. ggies07

    ggies07 Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Messages:
    3,702
    Location:
    Ft. Worth, TX
    My wife and I tend to use and live by Dave Ramsey rules. The only thing we have payments on are the house and cars. We save up before we buy other big items, that way we won't feel the pressure to pay it off. We got out of debt and stay out of it thanks to his rules.

    But it is more difficult than Red Sage is making it out to be. I'm going to try and save $250 a month until the Model 3 comes out to try and have a nice down payment, but with a five year old, who knows what will happen between now and then...
     
  17. Bangor Bob

    Bangor Bob Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2015
    Messages:
    670
    Location:
    Bangor, ME
    If you have decent credit, interest rates on auto loans are so cheap that there is a time-value component. IOW, on a $20k auto note, the interest is so small as to be worth paying it to not have to keep driving an old ICEbox that you know you shouldn't be roasting the planet with for 3 more years while you save up enough to pay for it outright.
     
  18. gigglehertz

    gigglehertz Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2013
    Messages:
    186
    Location:
    Bellingham, WA
    I used to live like that too, then I got financial religion. I read Total Money Makeover and then Rich Dad, Poor Dad and it was like a light bulb went on in my head. Highly recommended. I decided to shed all the monthly expenses I thought were necessities. I got rid of cable tv and watched Hulu and Netflix. Heck my local library loans out DVD's if you're into the family friendly stuff they carry. I dumped my $100/mo Verizon bill when the contract ended and went with a $25/mo prepaid service (since gone up to $35 but I'm grandfathered in, an incentive NOT to upgrade my phone). I started cooking more and eating out less and put off small purchases like music, movies, clothes, and gadgets for a couple of years. That's how I saved up a down payment on a house. As a single man I still went with a 2 bed 2 bath condo in town specifically so I could rent out a room, so with rent coming in I net out paying less than what I would pay for a 1 bedroom apt even counting HOA. Then when my car lease was up I ditched it, saving hundreds a month in both car payments and car insurance (I normally never lease, but my car was dying and that $200/mo Leaf lease was very tempting). I have a bus stop 100 feet from my doorstep and a large grocery store (soon to be 2 when Whole Foods opens) just 2 blocks away. I bought a bike and later added an electric front wheel so I could get to work and back without worrying about a bus schedule. I bike 6 miles each way daily, so I don't need a gym membership and I rarely get sick since I'm so active. I'm comfortably saving a bit more than what Red Sage suggested every month, and now that I've built that up a bit I'm able to use that money to make even more money swing trading TSLA and SCTY.

    I only make $30k/year at my job, and I plan on buying the Model 3 with cash. Yes I know conventional wisdom says I can't afford it. I have almost no job security at the moment so I don't want to take on payments for something that I might not be able to afford later, and that applies equally to a Tesla or an ICE vehicle. When I leased the Leaf the slick talking salesman talked me into writing a post dated check for the $2k down payment but the money I thought I was getting to cover it didn't materialize so I had to take out a loan on my 401k and to pay that back I got a weekend job with a temp agency. I packaged cereal at a factory that was right at the winter time round trip range limit of the Leaf, which reinforced my desire for both longer range and not being without at least a down payment ever again. Oh and that $2k could have been put to better use in my 401k since we were in the middle of a major bull run that I missed out on.

    Bottom line is you do what you have to if it's really important to you. If you add up all the little sacrifices you could make to afford it and decide you're not willing to do those then you should just buy something you are more comfortable with.
     
  19. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Messages:
    17,504
    KBB disagrees. If you follow these two pages and align the configurations, the default mileage of 15631, and pick Very Good condition you get the following...

    $74,248
    Kelley Blue Book


    $69,431
    Kelley Blue Book


    FYI
     
  20. dgpcolorado

    dgpcolorado high altitude member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,356
    Location:
    The Western Slope, Colorado
    I disagree. To me interest just reflects the time value of money, a basic concept in economics. There are cases where it makes sense to borrow money and others (running up high interest credit card balances, for example) where it does not. If I have a choice of a car loan at 2% or cashing in investments that are earning 3% or more, it is an easy decision. Not only does the loan save me money it improves my financial flexibility in an emergency because I still have those untapped assets to draw on if needed. I realize that this is different from those who go into debt and have no liquid assets to draw on. I'm just pointing out that loans and interest are tools that can be used wisely. Or not.
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC