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Elon Tweet: No 'significantly new consumer-facing technology' in Model 3

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I realize this is a joke, but it's one I firmly believe is true. That's why I make comparisons relative to architecture, such as Victorian Era versus Mid-Century Modern. I love that the same can be applied to the aesthetics of furniture from those periods.
Between this and your previous post, we're starting to agree on things... should I be worried? :D Also, now you've just got me thinking of the work of Richard Neutra.

On the topic of interior quality, I complain about this a lot but all I really want from Tesla in this area is an interior that doesn't squeak/rattle/buzz/clunk so much.
 
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Between this and your previous post, we're starting to agree on things... should I be worried? :D Also, now you've just got me thinking of the work of Richard Neutra.

On the topic of interior quality, I complain about this a lot but all I really want from Tesla in this area is an interior that doesn't squeak/rattle/buzz/clunk so much.
Understood. I just prefer to point out that 'quality' means different things to different people. Too often though, it seems to be centered around weight, heft, thickness... Things that traditional automobile manufacturers have programmed their Customers to expect, and that they pay for dearly. I believe that Tesla approaches things from an engineering perspective first. While for traditional automobile manufacturers that is often a secondary consideration as they instead work from a perspective of craftsmanship. And from my point of view, that focus on craftsmanship is a distractionary tactic akin to shiny baubles, a puff of smoke, and the flare of a flash, to keep you from noticing the tailpipes behind the curtain. If you haven't seen it yet, please check out this perspective at the Tesla Forums:

Built Like a Jet
 
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At the end of the day, the only certain luxury the Model 3 will offer is never having to fill its tank with gasoline.
No 3-Series BMW offers that (yet).
Robin

The Model 3 will almost certainly have far better acceleration and better handling than comparably priced BMWs. Performance -- not "luxury" -- is what put the "Ultimate Driving Machine" on the map.
 
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.....I think that entire line of thought is completely wrong. The Model 3 interior will not mimic interiors from BMW, AUDI, Jaguar, Lexus, or Mercedes-Benz. I see that as a good thing, because those are all boring and commonplace. And none of those competitors' cars will be able to withstand the onslaught of sales interest the Model 3 generates. Their sales will go down the drain while Tesla's continue to climb. Because when it comes right down to it? It is the driving experience, the engineering of the car itself, that matters most, not the window dressing.

'All aboard for fun time!' -- Iggy Pop

Ah, now here you touched on my concern and likely what many others are concerned about with that whole HUD/Binnacle and Elon's tweet about "How often do you look at the instrument panel when being driven in a taxi?" represent

If I understand your comments correctly you think the mechanical engineering of the car is what matters most, but there's also design engineering and this is where I get concerned. Elon's tweet's combined with the spartan interior design (based on what we've seen so far) have me concerned that the driving experience won't be as fun as a BMW, Audi or Benz - because it isn't being designed for it. It's being designed so a computer will handle everything and the "driver" is relegated to the role of "passenger"

What fun would a P75D ludicrous mode model 3 be if the steering wheel was removed because AP2 would handle 100% of the driving in an ultra safe, no more than 5mph over the speed limit and always driving with the care of the most law abiding driver. It would be crazy safe, but it would be boring.

Sure, taking a drivers side binnacle away isn't quite the same as removing the steering wheel but it's the first step, Elon intends it to be. The question on the model 3 is will the interior design leave people wanting to drive it, or will it push them twards just sitting in it and reading their iPhones?

Yep Red Sage, it IS the Driving Experience that matters most I completely agree. Elon's actions and comments on the interior have just made me a little nervous about it, that's all.
 
Ah, now here you touched on my concern and likely what many others are concerned about with that whole HUD/Binnacle and Elon's tweet about "How often do you look at the instrument panel when being driven in a taxi?" represent
Well, what do you want to see? And, what do you need to see? Further, what do you expect to see? Are those all the same for you, and why does that make the Model 3 interior objectionable to you?

If I understand your comments correctly you think the mechanical engineering of the car is what matters most, but there's also design engineering and this is where I get concerned. Elon's tweet's combined with the spartan interior design (based on what we've seen so far) have me concerned that the driving experience won't be as fun as a BMW, Audi or Benz - because it isn't being designed for it. It's being designed so a computer will handle everything and the "driver" is relegated to the role of "passenger"
That is the narrative that BMW, and likely AUDI and Mercedes-Benz want you to believe regarding Tesla products. I wrote previously in this very thread that the BMW 3-Series had been targeted early on because of its reputation as offering the BEST automotive driving experience when it came to balance, poise, handling, and basic seat-of-the-pants fun-to-drive appeal. Elon Musk stated early on that by proving that car could be beaten by an electric vehicle it would prove EVs were simply BETTER than ICE. That has been the design goal all along. Period.

What fun would a P75D ludicrous mode model 3 be if the steering wheel was removed because AP2 would handle 100% of the driving in an ultra safe, no more than 5mph over the speed limit and always driving with the care of the most law abiding driver. It would be crazy safe, but it would be boring.
At no point has Tesla stated they would remove a steering wheel from any vehicle they sell to the public. There has been some speculation that a Tesla People Mover Service of door-to-door autonomous buses would not need a steering wheel. Those would probably be used in urban areas to make life easier for those who cannot afford a car or other ride sharing services.

Sure, taking a drivers side binnacle away isn't quite the same as removing the steering wheel but it's the first step, Elon intends it to be. The question on the model 3 is will the interior design leave people wanting to drive it, or will it push them twards just sitting in it and reading their iPhones?
Waitasec... It has been Volkswagen, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz, and others among traditional automobile manufacturers that have shown concepts that 'remove the steering wheel'. Even Google has no steering wheel in their autonomous cars. Not Tesla. Not once. So, how did you determine that the Johnny Car experience ('TOTAL RECALL' 1990) is Elon's design intent, exactly?

total-2.jpg


Yep Red Sage, it IS the Driving Experience that matters most I completely agree. Elon's actions and comments on the interior have just made me a little nervous about it, that's all.
I have no idea why the INTERIOR would make you nervous about how the car DRIVES. I would be more nervous about the experience of a T-Bucket Dragster, or a Morgan Plus 8, or a Caterham Seven. And those typically have gauges spread out all over the place on the dashboard.

Here are some of the interiors of competitors for Model ☰:

XE_17MY_008_GEE_FULLBLEED-desktop-1366x650_tcm163-211643_desktop_1366x650.jpg
Jaguar XE

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Alfa Romeo Giulia

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AUDI A4

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Lexus IS

2015-C-CLASS-SEDAN-CH03-D.jpg

Mercedes-Benz C-Class

I find these to be boring, ordinary, uninspired, and cookie cutter. Just a cavalcade of 'me too' copies of each other. None of them original. And that is a fundamental trend among 'entry level luxury' cars that I've seen for over 25 years. Since the introduction of Lexus and Infiniti to the U.S. market. It has even infected Acura, who used to dominate the segment back when they were different from the rest. But their move to be like everyone else diminished their popularity by eliminating their previous unique appeal. It would be a shame if Tesla fell for the same wizened, sage advice.
 
Ah, now here you touched on my concern and likely what many others are concerned about with that whole HUD/Binnacle and Elon's tweet about "How often do you look at the instrument panel when being driven in a taxi?" represent

If I understand your comments correctly you think the mechanical engineering of the car is what matters most, but there's also design engineering and this is where I get concerned. Elon's tweet's combined with the spartan interior design (based on what we've seen so far) have me concerned that the driving experience won't be as fun as a BMW, Audi or Benz - because it isn't being designed for it. It's being designed so a computer will handle everything and the "driver" is relegated to the role of "passenger"

What fun would a P75D ludicrous mode model 3 be if the steering wheel was removed because AP2 would handle 100% of the driving in an ultra safe, no more than 5mph over the speed limit and always driving with the care of the most law abiding driver. It would be crazy safe, but it would be boring.

Sure, taking a drivers side binnacle away isn't quite the same as removing the steering wheel but it's the first step, Elon intends it to be. The question on the model 3 is will the interior design leave people wanting to drive it, or will it push them twards just sitting in it and reading their iPhones?

Yep Red Sage, it IS the Driving Experience that matters most I completely agree. Elon's actions and comments on the interior have just made me a little nervous about it, that's all.


From my perspective, as someone who daily drives a chipped STI in Seattle traffic, I'm excited about what this represents....

If I am out on some empty twisty road, or passing on a mountain pass, or hitting the onramp at a rare time when it's possible to actually put down some power, I look forward to the instant torque stretching out my smile.

For the other 99% of my driving where I'm literally averaging 15MPH on my daily commute, I'd LOVE to nap or game or read or look around or do just about anything other than watch the car in front of me creep along at a speed lower than my idle in first gear.

I can't wait to get my 3. Oh, and the cherry on top is the ~70% reduction in running costs and dependence upon oil.
 
Well, what do you want to see? And, what do you need to see? Further, what do you expect to see? Are those all the same for you, and why does that make the Model 3 interior objectionable to you?

I'd like to see and have more info, more tech and more control. By that I mean I'd like to

a) Have the latest tech, I understand that's not going to happen, Elon's made that clear but it's a strange sentiment that Elon is drawing a line that tech is being stripped away unless you get an S/X with no other choice. Almost all manufacturers will sell you an add-on tech package if desired we haven't seen any indication that will happen.
b)More control - (again depending on the package) most manufacturers will allow you to do things like put the car in sport mode, turn off fraction control, manual shift, etc...all things to tweak the driving/handling performance to what you want in a particular scenario. Heck even Tesla gets into it a little with "insane" mode and launch control. There's no indication I'll see this on my model 3 at least in the first year or two.
c) More info - I'd like to see the most of the info shown on the S/X small screen. AP info, speed, small map, heck call me old fashioned but I even like right/left blinker lights, I have no idea how those will get displayed right now.

That is the narrative that BMW, and likely AUDI and Mercedes-Benz want you to believe regarding Tesla products. I wrote previously in this very thread that the BMW 3-Series had been targeted early on because of its reputation as offering the BEST automotive driving experience when it came to balance, poise, handling, and basic seat-of-the-pants fun-to-drive appeal. Elon Musk stated early on that by proving that car could be beaten by an electric vehicle it would prove EVs were simply BETTER than ICE. That has been the design goal all along. Period.

I hope it still is with the Model 3. I can't wait until we get some Tesla employees putting up youtube videos comparing the TM3 next to a BMW3/Audi A4.


Waitasec... It has been Volkswagen, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz, and others among traditional automobile manufacturers that have shown concepts that 'remove the steering wheel'. Even Google has no steering wheel in their autonomous cars. Not Tesla. Not once. So, how did you determine that the Johnny Car experience ('TOTAL RECALL' 1990) is Elon's design intent, exactly?

Although the steering wheel comment was meant to illustrate an example of how engineering design form follows function I do actually think that Elon would be happy with a Total recall design. Between his riding around in a taxi comments, his autonomous Tesla network where the car earns money for you idea, and the hard push to level 5 automation why would you need a steering wheel?

On an unrelated note, thanks for a well thought out discussion Red Sage. I see where you're coming from.
 
@redsage I think there can be a compromise between button overload and minimalist.

Probably not something for the 3, but if/when the next S comes out:

jaguar I pace interior - Google Search:
Sure. Of the photos I posted previously, I found the Jaguar XE to be the least objectionable. I tend to like Volvo interiors too, they are well thought out, not merely 'crafted' as others are. I'm not a 'bells & whistles' guy. Though I am undeniably a geek, I don't adopt new technologies solely for 'cool factor'. Though, as noted before, I am likely to reject older design themes out of hand, simply for not progressing far enough over time, or not at all. To me accessibility and simplicity is the very essence of usability and usefulness. I don't personally enjoy what I call i$#!+ devices, but I applaud Apple for being able to make the power and complexity of mobile computing accessible to so many in a format they can accept and revel in.
 
No but it does need to be made from the highest quality materials.

I'm not seeing anyone arguing the 3 will be made from leather only from bulls bred at altitude in non barbed wire fences (silly as this sounds that's what Rolls Royce do.)

Tesla have a price point to hit. Can they pull it off with no buttons, lower end materials, and still claim it's a premium brand... I look forward to the interior reveal to see how close they get.

Yeah, but they aren't competing against a Rolls Royce. I don't see why the materials can't be a nice as a BMW 3 series. Why do you assume there will be lower end materials?
 
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Yeah, but they aren't competing against a Rolls Royce. I don't see why the materials can't be a nice as a BMW 3 series. Why do you assume there will be lower end materials?
I think to put the Tesla drivetrain and battery into a BMW 3-Series would increase the price of the 3-series despite saving on the ICE drivetrain. The battery pack is still quite costly, even with the Gigafactory. Additionally, Tesla doesn't have the benefit of BMW's economies of scale at this point. And finally, they have stated the desire to keep margins on the Model 3 over 20%, which is likely higher than the margins on the 3-series.

So my feeling is that the interior is going to have to be lower end in order to meet the above demands.
 
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I'd like to see and have more info, more tech and more control.
I believe that Tesla has shown with the Model S and Model X that the big screen is there to provide more information, better access to the underlying technology of the vehicle, and more control over what could have been done with a dashboard full of gauges, buttons, and switches.

By that I mean I'd like to

a) Have the latest tech, I understand that's not going to happen, Elon's made that clear but it's a strange sentiment that Elon is drawing a line that tech is being stripped away unless you get an S/X with no other choice. Almost all manufacturers will sell you an add-on tech package if desired we haven't seen any indication that will happen.
That is why I pointed out the words 'customer facing' earlier. Anything 'significantly new' that is a touch, feel, interact experience will appear on Tesla Generation II vehicles, Model S & Model X, first. But make no mistake, the underlying technology for the Model ☰ will undoubtedly be the absolute latest and greatest that Tesla has to offer as the initial representative of Tesla Generation III vehicles.

Take a look at BMW's website. There are some features that are available for the 7-Series that are simply not offered for the 3-Series at all. That's perfectly OK. The same will happen between Model S and Model ☰. At the same time, you may expect that useful technologies that are standard issue or optional on 3-Series, A4, ATS, C-Class, Giulia, IS, Q50, TLX, XE, and others will also be available for Model ☰. Not necessarily the comfort and convenience items or window dressing gimmickry features, but everything regarding safety & technology at the very least.

b)More control - (again depending on the package) most manufacturers will allow you to do things like put the car in sport mode, turn off fraction control, manual shift, etc...all things to tweak the driving/handling performance to what you want in a particular scenario. Heck even Tesla gets into it a little with "insane" mode and launch control. There's no indication I'll see this on my model 3 at least in the first year or two.
As I understand it, the switches for different modes are all there -- in software -- accessed from the central screen. It sounds like you would prefer physical buttons instead. Too bad. You won't get them. Here, take a look at this video from 2013 of Chris Harris covering the Mercedes-AMG SLS Electric Drive, I think it does things the way you would prefer, but requires you come off something like $500,000 to get it...


Never mind that it cost four times as much as a Tesla Roadster, had 13 kWh more battery pack capacity, and quad motor all wheel drive, but had the same 0-60 MPH speed, and half the overall range even though it came out five years later.

To some extent, I do agree with you somewhat... It would be nice to be able to get into the very nitty-gritty of things, tweaking each and every parameter one by one, instead of just switching between pre-programmed modes. I remember that my biggest frustration with Sony PlayStation videogames has been for over twenty years that there are only preset control schemes in the options, instead of allowing me to individually assign buttons as I prefer. Difference is, I think, that I trust Tesla to have modes that work well and allow the car to remain durable and exhibit long term reliability and endurance. Plus, I understand that Tesla doesn't yet want to allow Customers to get themselves into trouble by inadvertently doing a home tuning operation that breaks the car.

c) More info - I'd like to see the most of the info shown on the S/X small screen. AP info, speed, small map, heck call me old fashioned but I even like right/left blinker lights, I have no idea how those will get displayed right now.
Yeah. I think I'll call you 'old fashioned' on this one. :D

The blinkers? You don't really need a binnacle for those, do you? Since Tesla isn't able to eliminate the mirrors yet, chances are the blinkers will appear on those, as they do on so many other cars in the segment. It's hard not to see which direction you are indicating for a turn with those things.

The Autopilot information isn't really necessary to be shown. It is just there in the current iteration of technology mostly to show off. You have the windshield and windows to show you what the car is doing. It is probably best to monitor the car by looking out of those than at a display.

I hope it still is with the Model 3. I can't wait until we get some Tesla employees putting up youtube videos comparing the TM3 next to a BMW3/Audi A4.
I am certain you don't have to worry about this. The BMW 3-Series has been repeatedly beaten with it comes to handling, and fun-to-drive factor over the past five years. With so many examples of how to exceed its capabilities, there is no way that Tesla will miss the mark.

Although the steering wheel comment was meant to illustrate an example of how engineering design form follows function I do actually think that Elon would be happy with a Total recall design. Between his riding around in a taxi comments, his autonomous Tesla network where the car earns money for you idea, and the hard push to level 5 automation why would you need a steering wheel?
Keep in mind that Elon still drives himself to work. Not riding in a limousine or taking a helicopter. And he does that going Southbound on the 405 through horrid traffic, to then get on the 105 through similarly bad traffic, just to get to SpaceX here in Los Angeles. That has got to suck. But he still does it because he WANTS TO DRIVE. Remember, in his youth he bought a McLaren F1. I believe he also bought a Jaguar E-Type that he admittedly paid 'way too much for'.

Heck, I love to drive too, but I'll tell you right now, long before I became a billionaire, if I had the dough, I'd never drive myself anywhere in this town. I wouldn't even ride in the front seat, just to make sure if there was a problem, I couldn't be blamed for the incident. There are too many predators looking to purposely get into accidents with famous and/or wealthy people so they can sue. But without doubt, Elon believes in vehicles that are 'drivers cars'. And he wants them to be as close to stunningly beautiful, inside and out, as possible.

The Tesla Autonomous Fleet may well include some type of 'Johnny Car' without steering wheel or pedals some day. So what? They won't be selling them to anyone. So no one needs a steering wheel or pedals in them. That way, no one will bother to carjack them either. And in any case, their design aesthetic is sure to be better than in that movie, or others, like 'BLADE RUNNER' (1982) or 'The FIFTH ELEMENT' (1997).

2019-taxi-1b.jpg



You need the steering wheel to have fun. I know that there are a lot of people that look at driving a different way than I do. They want to demonstrate their ability to 'tame the wild beast' or whatever. Maybe they want to show off the skill they have developed at taking a car just to the edge, but not going over it, and they consider that to be 'fun' for some reason. Hey, as a matter of defensive driving, it is important to know how to control your car in an understeer or oversteer situation. But that still doesn't mean the fastest way around a track is sideways. And it doesn't change the fact that burning rubber ruins tire life.

I don't need three pedals on the floor, a handbrake, and a four-on-the-floor gated shifter. I don't need a tachometer, oil pressure gauge, voltmeter, ampmeter, water temperature gauge, or any of those other dials in front of me. I don't need to be reminded that I am operating a machine in order to enjoy driving. I'm good with a steering wheel, the long skinny pedal on the right, and a nice brake pedal that works when I need it. I believe the biggest challenge is not getting the most out of the machine, but proving myself as the fastest guy on the track. You don't race the other cars, you race yourself, and the track.

On an unrelated note, thanks for a well thought out discussion Red Sage. I see where you're coming from.
Thank you for your replies, comments, and the effort to fully communicate your position.
 
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I think to put the Tesla drivetrain and battery into a BMW 3-Series would increase the price of the 3-series despite saving on the ICE drivetrain. The battery pack is still quite costly, even with the Gigafactory. Additionally, Tesla doesn't have the benefit of BMW's economies of scale at this point. And finally, they have stated the desire to keep margins on the Model 3 over 20%, which is likely higher than the margins on the 3-series.

So my feeling is that the interior is going to have to be lower end in order to meet the above demands.
Perhaps. But as I have noted before, the base BMW 320i configuration is not so great. Barely as well equipped as a Toyota Camry LE that costs $10,000 less. The 320i basically just offers rear wheel drive, alloy wheels, and BMW badges for that price difference. That's quite a markup.

During 2016 the #58 BMW 3-Series sold 295,001 units worldwide. The #9 Toyota Camry sold 660,982 units worldwide last year. The Camry was down 11.3% over the previous year, while the 3-Series was down 10.8% from 2015.

I stand by the notion that so-called 'quality' interiors for the 'entry level luxury' cars are not a great expense for traditional automobile manufacturers at all. They make a LOT of money on those options. Tesla should be able to at the very least match, and probably exceed, what is offered in the 320i with the base Model ☰. If that is sufficient for the benchmark car of market segment, it should be acceptable for a Tesla as well, even if it isn't as blatantly 'luxurious' as a Lexus or Cadillac.
 
Regarding the interior design: I feel the approaches for designing the exterior and interior of the M3 are quite distinct. The needs and environments are different, rather like sitting at home in a comfortable chair with a glass of wine while watching a slick minimalist design hi-tech OLED tv. I myself want the slick exterior, but when I spend time inside the car I want a tasteful luxurious environment with minimal visual distractions offered as upgrades. Nice materials and appointments (MB Tex/black everything/comfortable form fitting seating/killer sound system). I currently drive a MB B-class electric and I love, love it. My only concern with the M3 interior clues we've been given so far, is the seeming drift towards thin, cheap looking or feeling materials. Hopefully none of this will be a problem a few months from now when all will be revealed.

PS: The design of the interior and exterior of course need to be compatible, which can be achieved through a common design vocabulary. .