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Elon tweets "pure vision" will solve phantom braking

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,510
3,318
Seattle, WA
Makes sense if it's regulatory. I imagine they have to recertify all the cars given the AEB/FCW function will function differently without radar, and it may be that the new Model 3/Y was the first to get certification and then they will work their way through the other models.
Tell me, which regulator "certifies" AEB/FCW? To what rule set?
The NHTSA agrees it is not them, and they oversee the FVMSS.
Cars are self certified in the USA by the manufacturer. The NHTSA only gets involved if that ends up not being true and the public could be harmed. Cars are not like Aircraft or Medical equipment which are required to gain approval from the regulator before release.
If this were true, Tesla would need to recertify every single time they changed AP code that could impact AEB/FCW in any way.

Note this is not true in other countries, and Tesla has specifically said they are keeping radar in those markets. Almost like they are using the low regulation market in the USA/Canada as a testing ground.

Additionally, Tesla runs the same code in the AP computer on the 3/Y as they do the S/X. Why could they "certify" the 3/Y before the S/X? You'd also think Tesla, who loves to harp on regulators slowing things down, would have called them out as the block instead of saying "Model 3 and Model Y are our higher volume vehicles. Transitioning them to Tesla Vision first allows us to analyze a large volume of real-world data in a short amount of time, which ultimately speeds up the roll-out of features based on Tesla Vision."
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,977
6,087
Tell me, which regulator "certifies" AEB/FCW? To what rule set?
The NHTSA agrees it is not them, and they oversee the FVMSS.
Cars are self certified in the USA by the manufacturer. The NHTSA only gets involved if that ends up not being true and the public could be harmed. Cars are not like Aircraft or Medical equipment which are required to gain approval from the regulator before release.
If this were true, Tesla would need to recertify every single time they changed AP code that could impact AEB/FCW in any way.

Note this is not true in other countries, and Tesla has specifically said they are keeping radar in those markets. Almost like they are using the low regulation market in the USA/Canada as a testing ground.

Additionally, Tesla runs the same code in the AP computer on the 3/Y as they do the S/X. Why could they "certify" the 3/Y before the S/X? You'd also think Tesla, who loves to harp on regulators slowing things down, would have called them out as the block instead of saying "Model 3 and Model Y are our higher volume vehicles. Transitioning them to Tesla Vision first allows us to analyze a large volume of real-world data in a short amount of time, which ultimately speeds up the roll-out of features based on Tesla Vision."
Self certification is still certification. NHTSA have already added their FCW and AEB (CIB/DBS) to their NCAP program for a while, so there are test procedures already:
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards; Automatic Emergency Braking

While Tesla does make software changes to their AEB/FCW regularly, but it will be nowhere near the same impact as when an entire sensor is removed. The difficulty will kind of be like the AP2 and AP2.5 transition (maybe even worse), and back then they had to delay a few weeks (AP1 to AP2 took even longer):
Tesla Turns off Automatic Emergency Braking in Some Newer Models

That's the kind of delay I'm talking about. Doesn't necessarily mean this will remain a permanent feature difference (as in cars with radar never getting Tesla Vision), as the comment I was responding to said.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,510
3,318
Seattle, WA
Self certification is still certification. NHTSA have already added their FCW and AEB (CIB/DBS) to their NCAP program for a while, so there are test procedures already:
What am I missing? That says NHTSA denied the petition to make AEB required and define a standard for it.
Yes, there are some tests, but nobody has to pass those to deploy AEB. Those tests existed back when Tesla removed AEB from some cars like you explained, which was an issue since they were sold as having AEB.

It remains that the only place Tesla is keeping radar is in places where regulators regulate these things.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,977
6,087
What am I missing? That says NHTSA denied the petition to make AEB required and define a standard for it.
Yes, there are some tests, but nobody has to pass those to deploy AEB. Those tests existed back when Tesla removed AEB from some cars like you explained, which was an issue since they were sold as having AEB.

It remains that the only place Tesla is keeping radar is in places where regulators regulate these things.
It's not technically "mandatory," but there is an industry-wide voluntary commitment to have AEB (virtually 100% compliance by 9/1/2022 at latest) and Tesla had been at 100% compliance every year in the AEB compliance reports (one of only two automakers, the other being Volvo).
NHTSA Announces Update to Historic AEB Commitment by 20 Automakers | NHTSA
NHTSA Announces 2020 Update on AEB Installation by 20 Automakers | NHTSA

That's why even when Tesla gone without AEB temporarily, they worked hard to add it back (wasn't gone for more than a year even for the AP2 transition). Not seeing why removing radar would change this commitment (not seeing Tesla willing to go below 100% compliance). Also given the probability that NHTSA selects a Tesla for NCAP testing is not necessarily low (not to mention IIHS or Consumer Reports), I don't think Tesla wants to have a low score there either from this move.

And you cut off the second part of the comment which is the more important point (why his logic may have been faulty due to this regulatory background).
 
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greenmore

Member
Apr 21, 2021
54
121
Maryland
Understood about the restrictions. But we are restricted from city street FSD. It's inexplicable why vision-only would not be deployed to earlier builds, unless there is something different about the cameras and/or processing that is also new in the post-May builds.
According to Tesla's updated AP webpage the sensors on the post-May 3/Y models are the exact same as the previous versions, except the radar was removed.

Also, Tesla Vision was developed in cars equipped with radar.

Ergo: pre-May cars will be able to use Tesla Vision just the same. But my guess is that cars with radar will get an better version of AP than cars without radar. Meaning: Tesla 'pure' Vision will be inferior, but Elon will twist this fact into being a feature.
 
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emmz0r

Senior Software Engineer
Jul 12, 2018
1,257
1,095
Norway
According to Tesla's updated AP webpage the sensors on the post-May 3/Y models are the exact same as the previous versions, except the radar was removed.

Also, Tesla Vision was developed in cars equipped with radar.

Ergo: pre-May cars will be able to use Tesla Vision just the same. But my guess is that cars with radar will get an better version of AP than cars without radar. Meaning: Tesla 'pure' Vision will be inferior, but Elon will twist this fact into being a feature.

Could be, or it could be better actually. The only thing I care about is it doesn't ghost brake. It can swing both ways:
It could react to all kinds of things much more, since they have to be extra careful with pure vision in the start.
Or it could get rid of the false positives from the radar and almost eradicate ghost braking from overpasses etc, which has increased for me since the 2021.14.x updates.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,510
3,318
Seattle, WA
It's right in Tesla's announcement:

All new Model S and Model X, as well as all vehicles built for markets outside of North America, will continue to be equipped with radar and will have radar-supported Autopilot functionality until we determine the appropriate time to transition those vehicles to Tesla Vision.
 

joelliot

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Aug 25, 2018
88
112
Rhode Island, USA
I wonder if any of this is driven by the global chip shortage. I believe someone mentioned it, perhaps in a different thread, but if Tesla cannot get enough RADARs, then Elon says we don’t need them. …most of the the time he, eventually, turns out to be prophetic, but the question is how will the cars do when they go for safety testing In the first rounds.
 

CTM31991

Member
Jan 6, 2020
32
74
North Haven Connecticut
shadows constantly kick my car out of AP. way more now than ever before. also the freeway driving is super swervy and crosses lane lines and gets pretty close to cars. Last update sucks. + takes forever for AP to become available
Noticed this the other day coming back from work. Constantly breaking on a very shadowy highway, the Merrit Parkway. It’s a tight congested road with lots of traffic. The car constantly slams the brakes super late to slow down for a car in front of me, even though there is plenty of time to come to a slow controlled stop, super annoying. Super herky jerky, feels like we’re going backwards.
 
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Mobile3228

Member
Aug 5, 2018
56
58
Europe
Check the date...

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S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,726
6,876
Snohomish, WA

The problem with phantom braking is there is no such thing as solved.

The reality is:
  • It needs to always exist to keep the amount of false negative braking down.
  • The more autonomous the car is the more sources of it there will be.
  • Even humans phantom brake for seemingly no reason. Sometimes its a visibility issue, and sometimes they think they see a cop where they hit the brake even when they're not even speeding.
Sources that I can think of that currently impact TACC/AP/FSD, and only one of them has the potential for Tesla Vision to solve:
  • Traffic light response feature causing false braking due to lights/signs it doesn't interpret correctly. As an example I turned back on Traffic light response, and then during the drive got small jolts of false braking anytime I went under a flashing yellow lights.
  • Traffic light response feature causing false braking due to a maps issues where a light/sign is where there isn't one
  • TACC slowing in response to something it incorrectly sees like an overpass, or incorrectly identifying a semi-truck over the lane when its not. This is what has caused the most phantom braking in my experience, but in recent builds seems less prone to this.
  • TACC slowing due to a maps issue where the map is showing a corner, but there isn't a corner.
  • NoA thinking it needs to get over when it doesn't, and suddenly slowing. This happened enough that I turned this off.
I've seen no evidence of Tesla trying to improve maps based issues so I don't consider phantom braking even an issue that Tesla is trying to correct. If it was we'd have any easy way to report occurrences, and we'd have a mechanism Tesla provided to give feedback on maps related issues.
 

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
9,470
8,627
Visalia, CA
Probably not true...
Probably it's true because we only have guessed whether Tesla Vision would solve the problem and we have not proven that it really works well in real life.

Theory and real-life can be different. The computer simulation could assure us that the rocket take us to Mars would not explode but we won't know for sure until it's used in real life.

It's not unreasonable that people are reporting Tesla Vision is not mature at this time because Tesla hasn't invited the press to show its gigantic supercomputer Dojo, and how advanced Tesla Vision has been starting from infancy till now.
 
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