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Elon tweets "pure vision" will solve phantom braking

steve68

Member
May 9, 2021
106
95
New Mexico
Just picked u my new 2021 Model Y 4 days ago and drove it 1000 miles home. During that drive I experienced this phantom braking 15-20 times on the highway, several times it was quite hard braking, 75-85 mph down to sometimes 45-50 mph before I could mash the accelerator pedal to correct. Luckily no one was ever close behind me, although I'm sure a few people were wondering wtf I was doing. This is most certainly not fixed yet.

And I also can't use cruise control at night because it commandeers the brightness of the headlights, leaving them on high beams while vehicles on the other side of the divided highway constantly flashing me to turn off my brights. :rolleyes:
 

Grob103

Member
Mar 3, 2021
32
17
San Francisco, CA
Just picked u my new 2021 Model Y 4 days ago and drove it 1000 miles home. During that drive I experienced this phantom braking 15-20 times on the highway, several times it was quite hard braking, 75-85 mph down to sometimes 45-50 mph before I could mash the accelerator pedal to correct. Luckily no one was ever close behind me, although I'm sure a few people were wondering wtf I was doing. This is most certainly not fixed yet.

And I also can't use cruise control at night because it commandeers the brightness of the headlights, leaving them on high beams while vehicles on the other side of the divided highway constantly flashing me to turn off my brights. :rolleyes:
So, the radar wasn't the problem all along. It was the vision. And now, that's all we'll have going foward. How is this progress I ask????
 
Last edited:

mikes_fsd

Banned
May 23, 2014
2,556
2,084
Charlotte, NC
Just picked u my new 2021 Model Y 4 days ago and drove it 1000 miles home. During that drive I experienced this phantom braking 15-20 times on the highway, several times it was quite hard braking, 75-85 mph down to sometimes 45-50 mph before I could mash the accelerator pedal to correct. Luckily no one was ever close behind me, although I'm sure a few people were wondering wtf I was doing. This is most certainly not fixed yet.

And I also can't use cruise control at night because it commandeers the brightness of the headlights, leaving them on high beams while vehicles on the other side of the divided highway constantly flashing me to turn off my brights. :rolleyes:
What version is your car on?
 

mikes_fsd

Banned
May 23, 2014
2,556
2,084
Charlotte, NC
So, the radar wasn't the problem all along. It was the vision. And now, that's all we'll have in the future. How is this progress I ask????
not enough info to jump to that conclusion.
It is only cars that were built after a certain date.
If his car was built before that date, but delivered now, he would be experiencing the same radar induced phantom braking.
 

diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
7,785
9,106
Terre Haute, IN USA
So, the radar wasn't the problem all along. It was the vision. And now, that's all we'll have in the future. How is this progress I ask????

No. Karpathy mentioned at CVPR yesterday that radar was the problem all along. He even gave a couple examples of how the radar sucked and Tesla's sensor fusion sucked. Tesla solved the problem by removing radar. With Tesla Vision, the phantom braking is gone or greatly reduced and braking in general for objects is much smoother.

HDcHtkd.png




Fv5gEoA.png
 

Darblish

Member
May 19, 2021
127
293
Columbus, OH
I completely believe that sensor fusion was a potential roadblock to solving phantom breaking, but with reports on this forum and YouTube videos showing plenty of examples of non-radar cars doing the same thing, it’s clear that removing radar wasn’t the solution. Maybe a step towards it, maybe a reprioritized change based on chip availability, maybe a decision to save money; but not the fix.
 

finman100

Member
Feb 4, 2016
41
37
Albany, OR
"Just picked u my new 2021 Model Y 4 days ago and drove it 1000 miles home. During that drive I experienced this phantom braking 15-20 times on the highway, several times it was quite hard braking, 75-85 mph down to sometimes 45-50 mph before I could mash the accelerator pedal to correct. Luckily no one was ever close behind me, although I'm sure a few people were wondering wtf I was doing. This is most certainly not fixed yet.

And I also can't use cruise control at night because it commandeers the brightness of the headlights, leaving them on high beams while vehicles on the other side of the divided highway constantly flashing me to turn off my brights."



really? there really are people who don't know the cruise control is NOT coupled to auto high beams? wtf. that is a deal breaker...read the manual. find the setting. LEARN about the vehicle is which you drive. just...kinda funny but seriously...high beams and cruise are tied to each other? that is a new one.

FWIW, my car does not have that feature. cruise and auto high beams can be set separately. '18 Model 3 long range RWD.

wow.
 

momo3605

Member
Mar 18, 2019
196
197
Bay Area
"Just picked u my new 2021 Model Y 4 days ago and drove it 1000 miles home. During that drive I experienced this phantom braking 15-20 times on the highway, several times it was quite hard braking, 75-85 mph down to sometimes 45-50 mph before I could mash the accelerator pedal to correct. Luckily no one was ever close behind me, although I'm sure a few people were wondering wtf I was doing. This is most certainly not fixed yet.

And I also can't use cruise control at night because it commandeers the brightness of the headlights, leaving them on high beams while vehicles on the other side of the divided highway constantly flashing me to turn off my brights."



really? there really are people who don't know the cruise control is NOT coupled to auto high beams? wtf. that is a deal breaker...read the manual. find the setting. LEARN about the vehicle is which you drive. just...kinda funny but seriously...high beams and cruise are tied to each other? that is a new one.

FWIW, my car does not have that feature. cruise and auto high beams can be set separately. '18 Model 3 long range RWD.

wow.
Umm he’s right. 2021 Model 3/Ys without radar are required to use high beam when autopilot is on. Just another frustration for people with vision-only cars.
 

helvio

E-TARDIS
Aug 11, 2020
284
429
Phoenixville, PA
No. Karpathy mentioned at CVPR yesterday that radar was the problem all along. He even gave a couple examples of how the radar sucked and Tesla's sensor fusion sucked. Tesla solved the problem by removing radar. With Tesla Vision, the phantom braking is gone or greatly reduced and braking in general for objects is much smoother.

HDcHtkd.png




Fv5gEoA.png
Do you have the link to the actual video? I'd be interested in watching it whole!
 

Saabstory88

Member
Dec 31, 2018
99
116
Midwest
"Just picked u my new 2021 Model Y 4 days ago and drove it 1000 miles home. During that drive I experienced this phantom braking 15-20 times on the highway, several times it was quite hard braking, 75-85 mph down to sometimes 45-50 mph before I could mash the accelerator pedal to correct. Luckily no one was ever close behind me, although I'm sure a few people were wondering wtf I was doing. This is most certainly not fixed yet.

And I also can't use cruise control at night because it commandeers the brightness of the headlights, leaving them on high beams while vehicles on the other side of the divided highway constantly flashing me to turn off my brights."



really? there really are people who don't know the cruise control is NOT coupled to auto high beams? wtf. that is a deal breaker...read the manual. find the setting. LEARN about the vehicle is which you drive. just...kinda funny but seriously...high beams and cruise are tied to each other? that is a new one.

FWIW, my car does not have that feature. cruise and auto high beams can be set separately. '18 Model 3 long range RWD.

wow.
It is actually connected to TACC/AP in 2021 cars without radar. I just picked up our new one, and it is every bit at bad at night as described.

But to the point of this thread...

I do a lot of driving on the highways out here in the midwest for work in my Model S. Part of our route from getting our car yesterday coincided with one of my much more common routes. The only two times that I experienced a phantom braking even in our new vision car were in two identical locations to where my Model S phantom brakes. I think some of these may be mapping/GPS issues and not something that the car is incorrectly perceiving through the cameras or radar.
 

diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
7,785
9,106
Terre Haute, IN USA
I completely believe that sensor fusion was a potential roadblock to solving phantom breaking, but with reports on this forum and YouTube videos showing plenty of examples of non-radar cars doing the same thing, it’s clear that removing radar wasn’t the solution. Maybe a step towards it, maybe a reprioritized change based on chip availability, maybe a decision to save money; but not the fix.

To be clear, sensor fusion was only a roadblock for Tesla because their radar was not very good which made sensor fusion worse. Since the radar was so bad, removing it was an improvement. But there are many AV companies using HD radar, HD cameras and HD lidar who are doing great sensor fusion and as a result have really accurate and reliable perception. So sensor fusion is the correct answer as long as your sensors are good.
 

mikes_fsd

Banned
May 23, 2014
2,556
2,084
Charlotte, NC
But there are many AV companies
That do not have deployed ~1+million cars with hardware already.
That dick around in the desert with their bespoke frankenstein "vehicles".


Lastly, you seems to be under the impression that with a more expensive/better radar unit the sensor fusion would "just be easier".
That is a known fallacy! Fusing/reconciling signals from very different source will always have its challenges.

The message that Karpathy tried to bring home in this last talk was "are you barking up the right tree" and his concluding slide:
Sensor fusion is the wrong tree!
1624293743037.png
 
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Reactions: Demonofelru

diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
7,785
9,106
Terre Haute, IN USA
Lastly, you seems to be under the impression that with a more expensive/better radar unit the sensor fusion would "just be easier".
That is a known fallacy! Fusing/reconciling signals from very different source will always have its challenges.

I never said that sensor fusion would be easy. Yes, sensor fusion can present its own set of challenges. But if you have good sensor fusion, it is the better approach because it can give you more reliable and more robust perception. Sensor fusion has already proved that it is capable of providing better perception.

The message that Karpathy tried to bring home in this last talk was "are you barking up the right tree" and his concluding slide:
Sensor fusion is the wrong tree!
View attachment 675885

It is Karpathy's opinion that sensor fusion is the wrong tree because he is promoting the "vision-only" approach. That last slide is basically a hiring pitch: "Come work for Tesla because we can solve FSD!" Companies always try to lure new hires by claiming that they alone can solve everything.

But AV companies using sensor fusion today all have real FSD. So I don't think we can say that good sensor fusion is the wrong tree when it produces real FSD. If Tesla actually solves FSD with vision-only, then we can say that sensor fusion was the wrong tree. But that has not happened yet.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,936
2,520
Seattle, WA
That do not have deployed ~1+million cars with hardware already.
Using this as an example that Tesla has chosen the right sensor path is a false correlation. It's easy to throw hardware in the car. Only once it's proven working at L3+ is it interesting. In the end this could end up being that Tesla made the biggest mistake, not was the most advanced. Only time will tell.

And, umm, most Tesla cars were shipped with radar, so if it's a "most vehicles shipped with that hardware" argument, Tesla is already beating Tesla. ;)
 

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