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Elon tweets "pure vision" will solve phantom braking

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,214
2,729
Seattle, WA
Go ahead and uncheck those if you want a product that's not used as a science project.
Unchecking Telemetry does not stop Tesla from sending new code to your car. I was talking about them using your car as a test platform, with new models and behaviors to "see how they work." Exactly like they are doing with vision only cars today, and like they do with many AP software updates:

As for the second paragraph, pretty much the "Coming later this year" section in the image below.
The issue is that the other elements like smart summon, lane change, etc are still in development and get changed. Tesla does not tell you these are still very much in development.

Auto wipers are still technically beta once you get the car and see it on the screen, but Tesla doesn't tell you that ahead of time.
 

helvio

E-TARDIS
Aug 11, 2020
429
578
Phoenixville, PA
Unchecking Telemetry does not stop Tesla from sending new code to your car. I was talking about them using your car as a test platform, with new models and behaviors to "see how they work." Exactly like they are doing with vision only cars today, and like they do with many AP software updates:
I was not aware of that. What is the source of this information? I wouldn't agree with you because if you disable telemetry, they can push whatever to your car but can't read anything back since you, as the owner, doesn't consent. On top of that, Shadow mode doesn't affect the car's functionality. And you consent with every software update. So I'm very much questioning the truthfulness behind your statement.

The issue is that the other elements like smart summon, lane change, etc are still in development and get changed. Tesla does not tell you these are still very much in development.

Auto wipers are still technically beta once you get the car and see it on the screen, but Tesla doesn't tell you that ahead of time.
I can agree with Auto Wipers specifically, but everything else is pretty much described in the screenshot from my last post.
"As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates."
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,214
2,729
Seattle, WA
Damn, he can accomplish all this with just junior engineers?!??

Secondly, did you just call Karpathy a junior engineer? Oh, and Jim Keller too? (who designed the FSD chip that is in all the Tesla FSD equipped cars)
Real engineers want to solve problems (i.e. a challenge)
Then the other "engineers" "have strong feelings about how things should be done" instead of actually solving the problem.
Teams of smart people solve huge engineering challenges like this, not 1, 2, or 3 people.
The fact that we think Musk, Karpathy, or Keller could be so important that nobody else on the team matters, or that they "designed" something, is exactly why smart engineers don't want to work there. It makes Tesla a cult of personality for a few people, and crushes the rest. It also makes it clear that not all ideas are welcome, and that politics are likely just as or more important than technical capabilities.

Programs like this need amazing leaders, and maybe Karpathy and Keller are that. But amazing leaders foster great teams of doers, not hangars on.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,214
2,729
Seattle, WA
On top of that, Shadow mode doesn't affect the car's functionality. And you consent with every software update. So I'm very much questioning the truthfulness behind your statement.
What is with al this "shadow mode" nonsense? Tesla clearly changes the behavior of cars with software updates. By definition making you a test subject. If this wasn't true, people wouldn't discuss and ask how a new version behaves in different situations.

You can only sort of pick and choose your software updates. For instance, a recent recall made a specific version or later required by MCU1 cars. And just try and get them to not update software if you go in for service. Also, show me where it shows you the detailed change log BEFORE you update the software so that you can make informed decisions? Tell me how you can go back to a previous version?

It's always interesting to see late 2020 purchasers come in and tell those of us with 2016 cars just how Tesla does things long term and how transparent they are.
 
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mikes_fsd

Banned
May 23, 2014
2,562
2,093
Charlotte, NC
Teams of smart people solve huge engineering challenges like this, not 1, 2, or 3 people.
That is my point, linux-works was trying to make a point that Tesla can only get junior engineers.

My example of Karpathy and Keller are just additional points that Tesla has really smart people and under those smart people there are hundreds more of smart ppl.
 

helvio

E-TARDIS
Aug 11, 2020
429
578
Phoenixville, PA
What is with al this "shadow mode" nonsense? Tesla clearly changes the behavior of cars with software updates. By definition making you a test subject. If this wasn't true, people wouldn't discuss and ask how a new version behaves in different situations.

You can only sort of pick and choose your software updates. For instance, a recent recall made a specific version or later required by MCU1 cars. And just try and get them to not update software if you go in for service. Also, show me where it shows you the detailed change log BEFORE you update the software so that you can make informed decisions? Tell me how you can go back to a previous version?

It's always interesting to see late 2020 purchasers come in and tell those of us with 2016 cars just how Tesla does things long term and how transparent they are.
Shadow mode is indeed not marketed at all, it's developer stuff that you only know about if you follow the keynotes and stuff. But for the consumer, it doesn't matter. It doesn't change your car. Therefore, no, you're not a test subject due to Shadow mode. Neither are you if you use Windows/Linux/Mac. They are constantly updated OSs, and in every single one of them, you can OPT IN to be a Beta Tester. Whether you paid for the OS or not. It's optional. I don't see Tesla as any different.

As for picking and choosing software updates. Hmm. Any recall on any car would fundamentally change something about your car. Whether it's improving something or making it not catch on fire. Which, again, are probably things you want. But by all means, not forced to. Now moving from that topic to a more technological standpoint. You are NEVER required to update your software. But everything is a trade-off. You will eventually forfeit support. This is also true for, again, Windows, Linux, Mac operating systems. Do you have a problem with those? It's also very difficult to downgrade those, if not impossible. Think of phones. Android is possible but requires lots of hackery. Same with Apple phones, but in some cases, impossible altogether. We're talking computers here, not gears. I understand your frustration, but if your morals are so deep into it, take advantage of the "buyer's regret" time window and return the car, then go and buy an ICE. Tesla is successful because it's a new concept of a car that improves over time. If you don't want it, no problem, but they're successful because most people do. I'd suggest you fully read the EULA and appropriate things you signed and make your case with them. I understand your frustration, but is it fair to be frustrated over things you agreed upon? It's a bureaucratic world... And this is the only world we have. Sorry!
 

greenmore

Member
Apr 21, 2021
54
108
Maryland
No. Karpathy mentioned at CVPR yesterday that radar was the problem all along. He even gave a couple examples of how the radar sucked and Tesla's sensor fusion sucked. Tesla solved the problem by removing radar. With Tesla Vision, the phantom braking is gone or greatly reduced and braking in general for objects is much smoother.
He also said that it would have been possible to fix the issues with radar and do proper sensor fusion but they decided they'd rather focus resources on full vision.
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,214
2,729
Seattle, WA
Take advantage of the "buyer's regret" time window and return the car, then go and buy an ICE.
I understand your frustration, but is it fair to be frustrated over things you agreed upon?
There is no such thing as a buyer's regret time period for a car.
Please show me where I agreed to this in 2016 when Tesla said FSD was a year away and was a solved problem. Or what EULA you have to agree to somehow in order to drive a Tesla.
We can't act like a safety critical car is marketed or sold to customers anything like a cell phone OS (which by the way does not update all your apps at the same time)
 

helvio

E-TARDIS
Aug 11, 2020
429
578
Phoenixville, PA
There is no such thing as a buyer's regret time period for a car.
Please show me where I agreed to this in 2016 when Tesla said FSD was a year away and was a solved problem.
Marketing can be treacherous.
Rather, please show me where Tesla promised the features. A contract not an advertisement.
I'll gladly join forces with you against their legal team if you convince me you have a legal case!

Like I said on some previous post (with sarcasm), FSD is less than a year away. And always will be.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,214
2,729
Seattle, WA
Rather, please show me where Tesla promised the features. A contract not an advertisement.
Taking money is a contract by definition. Tesla took customer's money. There has to be something in return, or it's an invalid contract.
This is what the Tesla website said from 2016-2019 as what you got when you bought FSD. The only thing missing is timeframe. In the absence of Tesla giving any timeframe, the official tweets and discussions by the CEO of this company would be reasonable for the customer to evaluate when they would get these features. Remember, Tesla LEASED cars for 4 years with the following description and charged money for it:

Full Self-Driving Capability​

Build upon Enhanced Autopilot and order Full Self-Driving Capability on your Tesla. This doubles the number of active cameras from four to eight, enabling full self-driving in almost all circumstances, at what we believe will be a probability of safety at least twice as good as the average human driver. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat. For Superchargers that have automatic charge connection enabled, you will not even need to plug in your vehicle.

All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don’t say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you.

Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction. It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available, as this is highly dependent on local regulatory approval. Please note also that using a self-driving Tesla for car sharing and ride hailing for friends and family is fine, but doing so for revenue purposes will only be permissible on the Tesla Network, details of which will be released next year.
Marketing can be treacherous.
It can be, but it doesn't have to be. It's a shame Tesla has chosen the treacherous route for their customers (which we all appear to agree upon) instead of clarity and transparency.
 

helvio

E-TARDIS
Aug 11, 2020
429
578
Phoenixville, PA
Taking money is a contract by definition. Tesla took customer's money. There has to be something in return, or it's an invalid contract.
This is what the Tesla website said from 2016-2019 as what you got when you bought FSD. The only thing missing is timeframe. In the absence of Tesla giving any timeframe, the official tweets and discussions by the CEO of this company would be reasonable for the customer to evaluate when they would get these features. Remember, Tesla LEASED cars for 4 years with the following description and charged money for it:



It can be, but it doesn't have to be. It's a shame Tesla has chosen the treacherous route for their customers (which we all appear to agree upon) instead of clarity and transparency.
I think they have shielded themselves pretty well in that regard, but like I said, if you think a lawsuit is due, go for it. I, for one, am fine with the timeline and slow progress, and that is due to my expectations only. Therefore I don't want to spend any energy (or money) into a lawsuit like that, but don't misinterpret that as "I don't agree with you". I'd join the class suit as another example, but then again, I'm not putting in any more effort than that
 

daktari

Member
Jan 21, 2017
916
1,033
Norway
greenmore said:
He also said that it would have been possible to fix the issues with radar and do proper sensor fusion but they decided they'd rather focus resources on full vision.
Yes, but he said it in the context of working on sensor fusion "would be a waste of resources" and "barking up the wrong tree".
And that is the big bet, that all the other competition is wrong and Tesla is smarter. Time will show.
 

daktari

Member
Jan 21, 2017
916
1,033
Norway
Competition has been wrong about Tesla for a very long time.
I guess it is still possible that competition will be right this time.

I have my bet on Tesla succeeding.
Or both, many winners is possible. Depends also if one waits for that Eureka tech to solve everything suddenly or evolutionary steps in sensors, software and hardware.
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,214
2,729
Seattle, WA
Competition has been wrong about Tesla for a very long time.
Tesla has been wrong about Tesla (in terms of Autonomy) for a very long time too. This is a completely different project than making electric drivetrains affordable, so success there doesn't prove much here.

It's almost like nobody knows how this will actually end up and the current scale / valuation of the company means nothing about chance of success, just like it did for drivetrains.
 
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greenmore

Member
Apr 21, 2021
54
108
Maryland
Teams of smart people solve huge engineering challenges like this, not 1, 2, or 3 people.
The fact that we think Musk, Karpathy, or Keller could be so important that nobody else on the team matters, or that they "designed" something, is exactly why smart engineers don't want to work there. It makes Tesla a cult of personality for a few people, and crushes the rest. It also makes it clear that not all ideas are welcome, and that politics are likely just as or more important than technical capabilities.

Programs like this need amazing leaders, and maybe Karpathy and Keller are that. But amazing leaders foster great teams of doers, not hangars on.
Working with neural networks is different from developing traditional algorithms and software.
Based on what information I saw about their AI, it is indeed reasonable to expect that a small team can very efficiently manage it.
Remember, there is very little coding done for neural networks compared to traditional software and algorithms.

If you wanted to do the same with model based vision methods, you'd need to come up with an algorithm for every single thing your method tries to do (there are hundreds of such things, like detecting lane markers, detecting cars, estimating trajectories, calculating distance, etc.) and programmers would need to write code to implement each and every one of those algorithms. That's potentially millions of lines of code.

When you use neural networks, you just design the architecture of your network and feed it a bunch of data. All in a few hundred lines of Python code.

Of course Tesla is still using some algorithms and C++ code where it makes sense, but that's only for a small portion of task.

Also important to point out that most of the deep learning based innovation comes from very young scientists who just graduated a few years ago. Yes, they can be considered junior. The reason is simple: more experienced scientists think in terms of algorithms first because that's what they learned and used in most of their carriers. However, for fresh CS graduates neural networks are their second nature. I personally experienced how new graduates can often think only in terms of neural networks and are ignorant of algorithms.
 
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linux-works

Active Member
Dec 23, 2019
2,170
3,750
mtn view, ca
That is my point, linux-works was trying to make a point that Tesla can only get junior engineers.

My example of Karpathy and Keller are just additional points that Tesla has really smart people and under those smart people there are hundreds more of smart ppl.
you can't seem to read the intent of what was said, and instead, want to fanboy your way thru life. you even pick 'fsd' and tesla graphics as your own. fanboy for sure. so not sure why I'm even wasting my time, but here goes...

tesla mostly hires guys new to the field. I'm not saying they can't find people, because clearly, for a lot of people, its a great place to have on your resume and a good place to learn some new skills if you are new to the field.

my POINT, which you seem unable or unwilling to grasp, is that experienced engineers wont put up with a tesla work/life balance and elon's meddling. juniors clearly have no problem with that and its great for them to get their feet wet. they can also learn what corporate experience NOT to repeat again..

you can argue from your fanboy position all you want, but I'm not going to waste more time on you. you don't know what you are talking about and twist peoples' words to win net.points.
 

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