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Elon & Twitter

bkp_duke

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2016
8,796
47,096
San Diego, CA
So you're telling us that cp on Twitter will be solved about when full self driving is released?

LoL. I'm not going to talk about timelines.

All I know is that Tesla is good at automation (forget FSD, look at the efficiency of their factories - factories that are run on software - it takes them about 10h to make a Model Y. VW takes about 24h to make an ID.4).

It won't happen overnight, but Elon will look to automate anything that a human touches on Twitter.
 
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I am very curious about that one as well. Has there been any evidence released on this either way?

It seems like firing most of the moderators responsible for handling this stuff probably wouldn't help the situation.

Yeah, this whole thread on child abuse seems to be just a few voices saying "Thanks for fixing it" with just about zero evidence or examples of people going to jail - I mean that stuff is full on criminal and something that every online platform has to deal with and report - typically working directly with law enforcement because that's pretty much required if it's found to be happening.

I'd be interested in actual details of what was supposedly there in "rampant" levels, and what got changed
 
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Beltsbear

Active Member
Jan 1, 2016
1,318
8,568
Dc
Well, it is well-documented that the Hunter Biden story was blocked by Twitter when it broke. That's one substantial example, with far-reaching political ramifications, that I can think of. Twitter (and Facebook) flagged and suppressed that story's distribution (right before an election) as false info. Since that happened 2 years ago, it's come 180 degrees and even CNN and MSNBC have reported that the laptop story was 100% valid, the laptop was Hunter Biden's, had all kinds of horrible info on it which was damaging to his father's campaign, and the FBI has confirmed as much in their investigation.



Jack Dorsey says blocking Post’s Hunter Biden story was ‘total mistake’ — but won’t say who made it (included here b/c the former CEO of Twitter says blocking that story was a total mistake).



TL;DR - Even Gov officials at the time said "this looks like a Russian hoax", and then they fully walked that claim back and say that the laptop is genuine, and the contents of it belong to Hunter Biden, and they are VERY damning.



This is but one example of voices on one side (NOT NAZI's, people with a different political view) being suppressed by an inherent bias of the moderation groups at Twitter and Facebook. This is the root of the claim by those NOT on the left (not necessarily on the right, the middle is claiming this as well), that it was a gross over-reach.


I know this is a "political post", but you asked for some links to back up the "why", so that's the reason for the post, and the reason why some people view Twitter as they did before Musk bought it (very left-biased).
It is a political post for sure. And your TLDR is basically Russian propaganda.
1) I don't think the story should be censored.
2) Basically we know the laptop (the hardware) is real and was Hunters.

THATS IT. Nothing more.
The contents have been modified countless times by people other than Hunter. Multiple folders added. The source email servers are known hacked so even the tiny bit of validation we could have had is not possible. Nothing has been found on it that is known unmodified that is any revelation. For example we know Hunter did drugs and had sex. Everything that is 'interesting' so far has failed to be proven and in most cases was proven to be a false plant. You can't get much forensic data from something that has been in multiple parties hands for years before a real professional law enforcement grade investigation is done. There is no smoking gun here.
 

Beltsbear

Active Member
Jan 1, 2016
1,318
8,568
Dc
So, this only tells part of the story, if true. What about automated systems to cut down on these?

The 50 people that Elon brought over from Tesla and SpaceX are specifically part of the software automation group. They work to build programs that reduce the need for . . . people to do things.


We do something similar in my company, but to a much smaller scale. Anything that repetitively requires a human to look at it and make a decision is flagged for "procedure review" so that it can be automated.


This would also, have the wonderful secondary effect of removing "human bias".
When you cut the staff for child exploitation you get crap like this:

This is one place where you do not cut. You spend money here to both catch the bad people and be sure you are not hurting the innocent.
 

ohmman

Upright Member
Global Moderator
Feb 13, 2014
11,306
22,318
North Bay, CA
Well, it is well-documented that the Hunter Biden story was blocked by Twitter when it broke. That's one substantial example, with far-reaching political ramifications, that I can think of. Twitter (and Facebook) flagged and suppressed that story's distribution (right before an election) as false info. Since that happened 2 years ago, it's come 180 degrees and even CNN and MSNBC have reported that the laptop story was 100% valid, the laptop was Hunter Biden's, had all kinds of horrible info on it which was damaging to his father's campaign, and the FBI has confirmed as much in their investigation.



Jack Dorsey says blocking Post’s Hunter Biden story was ‘total mistake’ — but won’t say who made it (included here b/c the former CEO of Twitter says blocking that story was a total mistake).



TL;DR - Even Gov officials at the time said "this looks like a Russian hoax", and then they fully walked that claim back and say that the laptop is genuine, and the contents of it belong to Hunter Biden, and they are VERY damning.



This is but one example of voices on one side (NOT NAZI's, people with a different political view) being suppressed by an inherent bias of the moderation groups at Twitter and Facebook. This is the root of the claim by those NOT on the left (not necessarily on the right, the middle is claiming this as well), that it was a gross over-reach.


I know this is a "political post", but you asked for some links to back up the "why", so that's the reason for the post, and the reason why some people view Twitter as they did before Musk bought it (very left-biased).
I asked because someone else repeatedly invokes dark political magic happening behind the scenes. I'm more interested in a nonpartisan view of how these things occur.

Your single example might be purposeful suppression. It also might be honest doubt - as they say in your article, the Post had previously "broken" news that was false, and there could have been reason for doubt on the veracity of this piece. I find it reasonable to consider that it might not be some "deep state" collusion, and might just be honest - and potentially misguided - doubt about certain articles.

Intent is nearly impossible to extract from these situations - it's much easier to assign in order to confirm whatever biases each of us has.
 

DrGriz

Active Member
Sep 11, 2021
1,588
2,515
Idaho
Um. Thinking back about my post about brain issues..

The first time I realized that something seemed out of kilter was when Musk went over the edge when the Fremont factory was closed down because of COVID. Before then he seemed neither left nor right leaning, but just this entrepreneur worried about getting product out the door, disrupting industries, and, as a strong sideline, Saving the World.

A more.. balanced.. approach might have gotten his factories open in CA in about the same time frame that they were eventually opened up. But he went.. combative. It worked.. kind of, but stepped on a lot of peoples' toes that perhaps didn't deserve getting stepped upon. And, in the end, was perhaps more than a little self-defeating.

That struck me as odd at the time, and out of character. Since then, I've happened to talk to people associated with his companies, and they report odd behavior (at least, odd to me, an engineering worker bee) as well.

The behavior has continued to change. Yeah, political leanings can change. Work habits can change. Being changeable is part of the human experience. So it's not difficult for people to come up with explanations for behavior, be it thinking that a person is playing multidimensional chess (which is the vaguely generic opinion around these parts) or is a fraud (TeslaQ style). But this dive-to-the-right behavior seems incongruous when compared to his behavior before 2020.

And that's the point. As I mentioned before, my father passed some years back from Lewy Body disease, a form of dementia. In 20-20 hindsight, the family realized that his behavioral changes had started some 20 years before his diagnosis, which only happened around the time when things had degraded to the point where he was as likely to walk backwards as forwards (it had gotten to his muscle functions). Until that point, the family had explained away his behavior as that of, well, an irascible old man. And that included his spouse.

With many forms of dementia, the first things to go are higher brain functions. Introspection is one of those things. When you ask somebody in the early throes of this kind of problem, "What are you doing? What would other people think?" you get back.. nothing. It doesn't compute for them. A number of the family literally asked my father that and had no answer from him, just this.. weird pronouncement, repeated, that didn't fit with the person we thought we knew.

Right about that time, or a little later, he stopped admitting that anything he said or did was wrong. Which was, again, odd: People make mistakes all the time, and, while he had been a little slow admitting to the odd mistake or other, after a bit, he never admitted to any error.

Mind you, he was in a highly technical field. He was still doing research, writing papers, and editing journals.. but it slowed down over time, gradually. While people around him got more and more irritated with the man and, after several years, he was forced out. A decade or so later, he lost the ability to do math. And then to string words together. And, eventually, lost the ability to swallow. This progression is not something that's easy to forget.

A couple of years ago I was wandering through the American Museum of Natural History in New York and came across an exhibit that detailed this progression. It was, well, enlightening, in a rather morbid sense. And explained quite a bit about what had happened to my Dad.

Musk is in the right age range for something like this to happen to him. I'm not kidding: I wonder if he should see a neurologist?
First, sorry to hear about your dad.

By no means am I presuming to make any diagnosis at all, but as long as you raise the subject, lack of attention or focus, impulsiveness, inability to solve problems or complete tasks and impaired judgment can indeed be signs of organic frontal lobe disease. There are plenty of other potential explanations as well.

Anyway, I hope for the best.
 
Well, it is well-documented that the Hunter Biden story was blocked by Twitter when it broke. That's one substantial example, with far-reaching political ramifications, that I can think of. Twitter (and Facebook) flagged and suppressed that story's distribution (right before an election) as false info. Since that happened 2 years ago, it's come 180 degrees and even CNN and MSNBC have reported that the laptop story was 100% valid, the laptop was Hunter Biden's, had all kinds of horrible info on it which was damaging to his father's campaign, and the FBI has confirmed as much in their investigation.



Jack Dorsey says blocking Post’s Hunter Biden story was ‘total mistake’ — but won’t say who made it (included here b/c the former CEO of Twitter says blocking that story was a total mistake).



TL;DR - Even Gov officials at the time said "this looks like a Russian hoax", and then they fully walked that claim back and say that the laptop is genuine, and the contents of it belong to Hunter Biden, and they are VERY damning.



This is but one example of voices on one side (NOT NAZI's, people with a different political view) being suppressed by an inherent bias of the moderation groups at Twitter and Facebook. This is the root of the claim by those NOT on the left (not necessarily on the right, the middle is claiming this as well), that it was a gross over-reach.


I know this is a "political post", but you asked for some links to back up the "why", so that's the reason for the post, and the reason why some people view Twitter as they did before Musk bought it (very left-biased).
There was no trail of custody of the laptop.

It had definately been tampered with and some files were planted by unknown parties.

What I heard was experts had no idea who placed what on the laptop.

This doesn't mean that Twitter should be blocking posts, but is does mean that unproven controversial allegations are tricky to handle and perhaps need some special treatment.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
13,587
10,194
Yes, he really believes this stuff (free speech being under threat). He bought Twitter because of the issues he had with their 'woke' (not my words) moderating and banning policy and now he sees the ‘woke' ones trying to cancel it.

First activists started pressuring companies not to advertise on Twitter (they said so themselves) and a lot of them have bowed to that pressure, which ofcourse they are not going to admit as it would make them look bad. And now those activists are pressuring Apple and Google to remove Twitter from their app stores (the activists said so themselves).

If the word ‘cancelling’ was ever appropriate it is in this case. It’s making Elon mad. You may say he brought it upon himself, but this is not how he sees it.
This was discussed way up thread. Much have been made about "activists," but there is zero evidence they have the power to directly control advertisers. They also don't have the standing to make any agreements with Elon, given they don't have say on whether advertisers continue to advertise on Twitter.

The only logical group that Musk may have been referring to is GARM, an industry group that Twitter itself is part of. But as noted, while that group can call for collective action, they have no way to force a member to continue advertising on a particular platform.

The most logical reason to pause ads (which had been pointed out in various articles) is that advertisers are simply taking a wait and see approach. It was pointed out up thread also, Twitter laid off most of the staff that dealt with problems that advertisers had with content. If there is no one around to deal with the problems they are having, pausing ad spend makes a lot of sense.
 
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phantasms

Mr Self Destruct
Supporting Member
IMHO The Pod Save America folks and Kara Swisher have hit many nails on the head. I enjoyed listening to all of their takes on this Elon mess...let's call it what it is.

Kara's podcast: ‎On with Kara Swisher: Elon Musk: Somebody That I Used to Know on Apple Podcasts

Pod Save America. These guys are phenomenal and the guy in the center chats about his Tesla which he loves in nearly every episode. YouTube link will start at the discussion of Musk and bypass the Trump stuff as it's not relevant to this thread.

 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
13,587
10,194
So, this only tells part of the story, if true. What about automated systems to cut down on these?

The 50 people that Elon brought over from Tesla and SpaceX are specifically part of the software automation group. They work to build programs that reduce the need for . . . people to do things.


We do something similar in my company, but to a much smaller scale. Anything that repetitively requires a human to look at it and make a decision is flagged for "procedure review" so that it can be automated.


This would also, have the wonderful secondary effect of removing "human bias".
Considering Tesla shut down their own forums last year, I doubt people would have much confidence automated systems written by Tesla engineers would be a good replacement for human moderators.

The rumormill at the time was that Tesla shut it down because they didn't want to hire moderators to deal with all the spam and trolls.

And in Tesla's situation, Tesla only had to deal with their own image and standards. In Twitter's case, they have deal with many advertisers which may not have as much patience.
 

bkp_duke

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2016
8,796
47,096
San Diego, CA
I asked because someone else repeatedly invokes dark political magic happening behind the scenes. I'm more interested in a nonpartisan view of how these things occur.

Your single example might be purposeful suppression. It also might be honest doubt - as they say in your article, the Post had previously "broken" news that was false, and there could have been reason for doubt on the veracity of this piece. I find it reasonable to consider that it might not be some "deep state" collusion, and might just be honest - and potentially misguided - doubt about certain articles.

Intent is nearly impossible to extract from these situations - it's much easier to assign in order to confirm whatever biases each of us has.

Intent was pretty clear - the Twitter "exec" that was responsible called Trump officials "actual Nazis" and quit after Elon bought the company:
 
Considering Tesla shut down their own forums last year, I doubt people would have much confidence automated systems written by Tesla engineers would be a good replacement for human moderators.

The rumormill at the time was that Tesla shut it down because they didn't want to hire moderators to deal with all the spam and trolls.

And in Tesla's situation, Tesla only had to deal with their own image and standards. In Twitter's case, they have deal with many advertisers which may not have as much patience.
Second the notion. I was a denizen of those forums. The early days of those forums provided a place for those interested in Teslas to Ask Questions and Get Answers. Once the FUD train got well and started, various short sellers and, given the actions and contexts of those that are conveniently named, "trolls", it appears that other, paid-for actors were sent to disrupt the place. It was discovered that at least two of these troll-types were playing the same games at Ford's EV forums. (Besides: It gets kind of obvious that there's Something Going On when a particular poster is posting FUD and associated 24 hours a day, for days at a time.)

Tesla kept on trying different algorithms: Community policing in various forms with "reports", Slashdot-style, that would get posts removed. Each of those several methods were deconstructed and weaponized by the trolls; towards the end, 90% of the posts on the forums were trolls and people responding to the trolls.

Thing is, an actual human moderator (such as we have around here) is smarter than any number of funky algorithms, can cut through the cruft, and ban actual malefactors. Given the number of forums over at Tesla that would have required, I would guess, around a dozen moderators or so, rather than (what appeared) to be one or two severely overworked Tesla drones who seemed to have other fish to fry than run herd on the forums there.

Thing is, once sales had picked up, the forums didn't seem to pique that much interest from within Tesla. I would guess the forums over there were part of Public Relations - and, as you all know, that got closed down by Tesla.
 

ggr

Expert in Dunning-Kruger Effect!
Moderator
Mar 24, 2011
7,282
31,576
San Diego, CA
It is a political post for sure. And your TLDR is basically Russian propaganda.
1) I don't think the story should be censored.
2) Basically we know the laptop (the hardware) is real and was Hunters.

THATS IT. Nothing more.
The contents have been modified countless times by people other than Hunter. Multiple folders added. The source email servers are known hacked so even the tiny bit of validation we could have had is not possible. Nothing has been found on it that is known unmodified that is any revelation. For example we know Hunter did drugs and had sex. Everything that is 'interesting' so far has failed to be proven and in most cases was proven to be a false plant. You can't get much forensic data from something that has been in multiple parties hands for years before a real professional law enforcement grade investigation is done. There is no smoking gun here.
Chiming in here, I'm a semi-retired infosec person and still have a lot of connections in that community, and I want to agree with this posting; it is general consensus that the laptop was so tampered with it has no evidentiary value one way or another.
 
This was discussed way up thread. Much have been made about "activists," but there is zero evidence they have the power to directly control advertisers. They also don't have the standing to make any agreements with Elon, given they don't have say on whether advertisers continue to advertise on Twitter.

The only logical group that Musk may have been referring to is GARM, an industry group that Twitter itself is part of. But as noted, while that group can call for collective action, they have no way to force a member to continue advertising on a particular platform.

The most logical reason to pause ads (which had been pointed out in various articles) is that advertisers are simply taking a wait and see approach. It was pointed out up thread also, Twitter laid off most of the staff that dealt with problems that advertisers had with content. If there is no one around to deal with the problems they are having, pausing ad spend makes a lot of sense.

The other thing some folks seem to not understand is that as defined in US law, corporate decisions on where to spend money IS literally free speech.
 
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