Elon & Twitter

[advocate8]

By the comments here and the main thread, there is a VAST divergence of people who own or run their own companies and have to actually deal with this.....
And the arm chair quarterbacks who are using hopium to inspire their version of a workplace... that wouldn't function well... let alone make a profit.

So a particularly dictatorial boss’s viewpoint is the only valid one about what’s right and wrong. Right. Got it.

 

[bkp_duke]

Some people here aren't going to like the above response, but it is the definitive answer to the assertion that employees have the right to unfettered free speech. That said, there are extenuating circumstances regarding Elon Musk's purchase of Twitter. My guess is that those Twitter employees have already decided to work elsewhere and this protest was a last ditch effort to scuttle the deal. Or maybe a subset of these employees feel that they can't be fired. I supervised a few people like that. Some were correct because they could game the system. Others were so vital to the organization that terminating them would have been a far worse than ignoring any outbursts.

We have 3 "keyman" employees (as they are referred to, that's not "sexist") in our company. It's an active process to keep that number always to a minimum, and frankly if I haven't documented polices and procedures that allow me to fire those employees, then I'm not doing my job as a boss running the company.

I would bet there are far far fewer people at Twitter that are "absolutely essential" to operations than those people really think.

 

[bkp_duke]

So a particularly dictatorial boss’s viewpoint is the only valid one about what’s right and wrong. Right. Got it.

That person is the BOSS. Companies are NOT democracies, never have been. If an employee doesn't like that, they can leave and pursue opportunities elsewhere. Post haste I might add.

 

[bkp_duke]

I owned my own business and retired at 40 from it. We had a ton of fun and enjoyed loads of arguments about our differing opinions. My employees constantly pushed back on me because I was a workaholic maniac and expected similar from them. I'm glad they did because I'd have a lot of self-judgement today if I'd expected them to work as hard as they did and be unable to express themselves freely. That's a seriously miserable environment from my perspective.

That is a VERY different situation than someone who is passive aggressive and making other employee's lives difficult. And you know it.

The employees I fired were going behind others' backs and complaining about them for things that either 1) were simply not true or 2) were so exaggerated as to be false. When nearly the entire department comes to you saying "these guys go, or we go" then you know you have a serious problem.

The only regret I don't have is not firing them sooner. Since they left, people are happier, work is done faster, and the drama factor is down 100%.

 

[_Redshift_]

I owned my own business and retired at 40 from it. We had a ton of fun and enjoyed loads of arguments about our differing opinions. My employees constantly pushed back on me because I was a workaholic maniac and expected similar from them. I'm glad they did because I'd have a lot of self-judgement today if I'd expected them to work as hard as they did and be unable to express themselves freely. That's a seriously miserable environment from my perspective.

I run my own company and have similar observations. As the guy who started it all I have more expectations than my employees. However, they make less than me, and it’s a job for them.
So why should they work as hard as me?

As long as we are producing value, and heading in the right direction, I am okay.

 

[_Redshift_]

You guys obviously have never run a business.

My employees can share there opinions freely . . . but NOT on company time or dime. They do so, they are fired, period.

If my employees were doing this in the company slack channel, they would be GONE. On their own time, doesn't interfere with their job, I don't care, at all.

I am running one. BTW, we are successful, before you start mouthing off on things you don’t know much about.

 

[ohmman]

That is a VERY different situation than someone who is passive aggressive and making other employee's lives difficult. And you know it.

The employees I fired were going behind others' backs and complaining about them for things that either 1) were simply not true or 2) were so exaggerated as to be false. When nearly the entire department comes to you saying "these guys go, or we go" then you know you have a serious problem.

The only regret I don't have is not firing them sooner. Since they left, people are happier, work is done faster, and the drama factor is down 100%.

Sorry, I was going off of this:

My employees can share there opinions freely . . . but NOT on company time or dime. They do so, they are fired, period.

If my employees were doing this in the company slack channel, they would be GONE. On their own time, doesn't interfere with their job, I don't care, at all.

I didn't see those opinions or the stuff in the slack channel as being passive aggressive and making other employee's lives difficult. But I don't work at Twitter. Your comments about your work environment do make it sound very much like a top down dictatorship, but I'm sure that's just how you're choosing to represent it in this particular discussion. I can't imagine you don't really listen openly to opinions and feedback from your employees.

I'll give another example where I was on the other side. I was in my early 20s and thanks to the aforementioned work addiction and an affinity for things tech, I was rapidly becoming one of the more valuable tech support members in the company I worked for. I more than doubled my salary in a year, but I was always joking around during work because laughing is a way that I blow off steam. My manager came out, and in front of everyone, said, "You know, sometimes work is about getting work done and not always about being happy and making jokes," or some such comment. As a brash 22 year old (and honestly a bit of an ass), I told him right there in front of everyone, "then you should fire me, because I like to be happy." He walked back into his office quietly. He didn't fire me either, perhaps because I was one of those "keyman" employees you speak of, but also because he hopefully realized that he was entirely out of line with his approach. It was that comment, though, that sent me looking for another job, and I landed another one within a few weeks and left the place.

That interaction informed the way I thought about "company time" moving forward. It's about the work, not about the minutes, at least it was for me.

All of that said, if we want to talk about this entirely different concept of passive aggressive employees who make other employee's lives different, I totally agree they have to go.

 

[bkp_duke]

I am running one. BTW, we are successful, before you start mouthing off on things you don’t know much about.

Then you have either never dealt with a TRULY disruptive employee, or you are lying about it. Those that truly want to stir up trouble always destroy company productivity.

And I never said I expect my employees to work as hard as me. Stop moving the goalposts, etc. I work 100+ hours per week, and I would never expect that from my employees. But I also LOVE what I do, and the time I spend working just doesn't feel like work.

 

[advocate8]

I am running one. BTW, we are successful, before you start mouthing off on things you don’t know much about.

Yes. Productivity, and related things like retention, job satisfaction, brand and company reputation etc etc are built upon the culture of the place, the tone the owner and/or managers set. "My way or the highway" isn’t the right overarching philosophy nor is it necessary except in rare instances if you’re a good leader.

 

[advocate8]

Sorry, I was going off of this:


I didn't see those opinions or the stuff in the slack channel as being passive aggressive and making other employee's lives difficult. But I don't work at Twitter. Your comments about your work environment do make it sound very much like a top down dictatorship, but I'm sure that's just how you're choosing to represent it in this particular discussion. I can't imagine you don't really listen openly to opinions and feedback from your employees.

I'll give another example where I was on the other side. I was in my early 20s and thanks to the aforementioned work addiction and an affinity for things tech, I was rapidly becoming one of the more valuable tech support members in the company I worked for. I more than doubled my salary in a year, but I was always joking around during work because laughing is a way that I blow off steam. My manager came out, and in front of everyone, said, "You know, sometimes work is about getting work done and not always about being happy and making jokes," or some such comment. As a brash 22 year old (and honestly a bit of an ass), I told him right there in front of everyone, "then you should fire me, because I like to be happy." He walked back into his office quietly. He didn't fire me either, perhaps because I was one of those "keyman" employees you speak of, but also because he hopefully realized that he was entirely out of line with his approach. It was that comment, though, that sent me looking for another job, and I landed another one within a few weeks and left the place.

That interaction informed the way I thought about "company time" moving forward. It's about the work, not about the minutes, at least it was for me.

All of that said, if we want to talk about this entirely different concept of passive aggressive employees who make other employee's lives different, I totally agree they have to go.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.
This is a succinct case study.

 

[jabloomf1230]

Yes. Productivity, and related things like retention, job satisfaction, brand and company reputation etc etc are built upon the culture of the place, the tone the owner sets. "My way or the highwa"y isn’t the right overarching philosophy nor is it necessary except in rare instances if you’re a good leader.

Getting back Elon. There is potential for someone here to rearrange "My way or the highway" so it's specific to him as a leader.

Is he really that dictatorial or is it just some kind of managerial schtick, designed to motivate the average employee? I would like to believe that it's the latter. He might be a lion with the executive staff (and also to the media/public), but he may also be a lamb to those employees with whom he has no direct interaction.

 

[bkp_duke]

I didn't see those opinions or the stuff in the slack channel as being passive aggressive and making other employee's lives difficult. But I don't work at Twitter. Your comments about your work environment do make it sound very much like a top down dictatorship, but I'm sure that's just how you're choosing to represent it in this particular discussion. I can't imagine you don't really listen openly to opinions and feedback from your employees.

Let me clarify - I of course take feedback from my employees and use it to both better our product and myself. Only a fool would not do that.

What I'm referring to are situations where:
1) someone has an "attitude". Management (not necessarily me) has sat down with that person, tried to determine the root problem and how it may be solved, and instead of things improving, they get worse.
2) the above person AFTER the management meeting then goes and starts rumors about their manager and other employees, and this action was WELL documented (they were not bright and did it in text, not verbally)
3) when called out about #2 above they double down and insist that the problem is not them, but everyone else not changing to accommodate their way of thinking, wants, desires, etc.

Our company doesn't frequently hire or fire people, past few weeks being an exception. It is a "pressure cooker" environment, because we are an IT company and have a 99.999% uptime guarantee for our clients (literally, only allowed SECONDS of downtime a year by our SLA), but each and every employee views their coworkers as an extended family, and they are treated as such by both management and other coworkers.

Furthermore when my employees are in the right, I will defend them to the ends of the earth. We literally have built into our ToS a "politeness" clause that our customers must follow. I once had VP of a fortune 500 company cuss out an entry-level tech. After verifying that my tech was actually correct in what he told the customer, and that he did so in a polite manner, that afternoon I called them up and discussed the situation with said VP, and requested that he provide an apology to my tech who he insulted. When he refused, I notified him and his boss that they were in breach of their contract and they had 15 days to get their data off our platform before it would be deleted. That was a $100,000/mo customer that I fired, to defend a tech that made just a fraction of that. Simply because it was right.

 

[bkp_duke]

Getting back Elon. There is potential for someone here to rearrange "My way of the highway" so it's specific to him as a leader.

Is he really that dictatorial or is it just some kind of managerial schtick, designed to motivate the average employee? I would like to believe that it's the latter. He might be a lion with the executive staff (and also to the media/public), but he may also be a lamb to those employees with whom he has no direct interaction.

I have a college friend that worked for several years at Tesla as a VP, and was frequently around Elon.

To be blunt, Elon is known as a hard ass. He's nice, but his expectations are basically "you don't screw around at work - work is for WORK". During the Model 3 ramp, he was known to walk into the Fremont factory and watch people on the line. If he thought they were sub-par in their work ethic or skills, he would fire them on the spot, no hesitation.

And anyone that doesn't ascribe to his vision of the future, and what Tesla and SpaceX are striving towards, are similarly canned.

There is the "no a$$hole" policy at SpaceX, and that works well, but it's all with an understanding that if management doesn't feel like you are pulling your weight, you are gone.


TL;DR - "Firm but fair" is probably the best way to sum up how it is working for Elon.

 

[ohmman]

Let me clarify - I of course take feedback from my employees and use it to both better our product and myself. Only a fool would not do that.

What I'm referring to are situations where:
1) someone has an "attitude". Management (not necessarily me) has sat down with that person, tried to determine the root problem and how it may be solved, and instead of things improving, they get worse.
2) the above person AFTER the management meeting then goes and starts rumors about their manager and other employees, and this action was WELL documented (they were not bright and did it in text, not verbally)
3) when called out about #2 above they double down and insist that the problem is not them, but everyone else not changing to accommodate their way of thinking, wants, desires, etc.

Our company doesn't frequently hire or fire people, past few weeks being an exception. It is a "pressure cooker" environment, because we are an IT company and have a 99.999% uptime guarantee for our clients (literally, only allowed SECONDS of downtime a year by our SLA), but each and every employee views their coworkers as an extended family, and they are treated as such by both management and other coworkers.

Furthermore when my employees are in the right, I will defend them to the ends of the earth. We literally have built into our ToS a "politeness" clause that our customers must follow. I once had VP of a fortune 500 company cuss out an entry-level tech. After verifying that my tech was actually correct in what he told the customer, and that he did so in a polite manner, that afternoon I called them up and discussed the situation with said VP, and requested that he provide an apology to my tech who he insulted. When he refused, I notified him and his boss that they were in breach of their contract and they had 15 days to get their data off our platform before it would be deleted. That was a $100,000/mo customer that I fired, to defend a tech that made just a fraction of that. Simply because it was right.

Then we can probably agree that comments like this are hyperbolic and also outright incorrect - many of us have run (very successful) businesses, and done so in different ways. And you clearly won't fire them, period. I knew you were more reasonable than you were insinuating for effect.

You guys obviously have never run a business.

My employees can share there opinions freely . . . but NOT on company time or dime. They do so, they are fired, period.

 

[bkp_duke]

Then we can probably agree that comments like this are hyperbolic and also outright incorrect - many of us have run (very successful) businesses, and done so in different ways. And you clearly won't fire them, period. I knew you were more reasonable than you were insinuating for effect.

We do have a "no politics" policy at our company, simply because the one time we allowed it, we saw people spiral QUICKLY into arguments (and no work getting done). Politics are "left at the door".

So, I defend my comment as "slightly hyperbolic", but still in line with how we run things. No politics, keep that crap to yourself while working.

 

[_Redshift_]

Sorry, I was going off of this:


I didn't see those opinions or the stuff in the slack channel as being passive aggressive and making other employee's lives difficult. But I don't work at Twitter. Your comments about your work environment do make it sound very much like a top down dictatorship, but I'm sure that's just how you're choosing to represent it in this particular discussion. I can't imagine you don't really listen openly to opinions and feedback from your employees.

I'll give another example where I was on the other side. I was in my early 20s and thanks to the aforementioned work addiction and an affinity for things tech, I was rapidly becoming one of the more valuable tech support members in the company I worked for. I more than doubled my salary in a year, but I was always joking around during work because laughing is a way that I blow off steam. My manager came out, and in front of everyone, said, "You know, sometimes work is about getting work done and not always about being happy and making jokes," or some such comment. As a brash 22 year old (and honestly a bit of an ass), I told him right there in front of everyone, "then you should fire me, because I like to be happy." He walked back into his office quietly. He didn't fire me either, perhaps because I was one of those "keyman" employees you speak of, but also because he hopefully realized that he was entirely out of line with his approach. It was that comment, though, that sent me looking for another job, and I landed another one within a few weeks and left the place.

That interaction informed the way I thought about "company time" moving forward. It's about the work, not about the minutes, at least it was for me.

All of that said, if we want to talk about this entirely different concept of passive aggressive employees who make other employee's lives different, I totally agree they have to go.

I have told my employees that the sometimes heated arguments (there have been many, many of them) we have over something small or big are like the sparks one must endure when fabricating a precision metal part.

Free flow of ideas is a must for a robust product.

Your customers won’t be kind to you, if you haven’t thought through the issues. Simple as that.

 

[_Redshift_]

Then you have either never dealt with a TRULY disruptive employee, or you are lying about it. Those that truly want to stir up trouble always destroy company productivity.

And I never said I expect my employees to work as hard as me. Stop moving the goalposts, etc. I work 100+ hours per week, and I would never expect that from my employees. But I also LOVE what I do, and the time I spend working just doesn't feel like work.

Sorry, I had to unmute you to view your replies. After this reply, though, I will go back to the silent mode.

You have no idea what sorts of employees I have had to deal with. In the early years, and up until the last year, I have had life or death crises due to a disruptive employee. Twice, I thought I would have to end up in the emergency room because I was sure I was having a breakdown.

Dont get me wrong, employees who are not productive to the company’s goals are fired promptly. However, when your cofounder, and someone who is very intelligent is the one who is being disruptive, things get vastly more complicated. Also, when you are running a small company (in the initial phases) you don’t have a whole lot of room to fire and hire employees.

Unless you have actually started a company, put your skin in the game like no one else has, gone almost bankrupt, risen like a Phoenix from the ashes, have pivoted to a better product, and seen success because of your passion, sheer grit and determination, you won’t understand what I am talking about. I have done all those things.

People now only see that my company is successful. They don’t see all th extremely dark phases I got through when I thought I’d kill myself.

That’s the nature of this game, however.

So yeah, disruptive employees and how to deal with them? I could write a book.

Edit: lastly it’s very good that you love what you do. Few people love what they do. The world would be a better place if people loved what they did for a living, but we aren’t living in an ideal world.

 

[bkp_duke]

Unless you have actually started a company, put your skin in the game like no one else has, gone almost bankrupt, risen like a Phoenix from the ashes, have pivoted to a better product, and seen success because of your passion, sheer grit and determination, you won’t understand what I am talking about. I have done all those things.

Done all of those. Including removing a co-founder from the business and having a lawyer go after him for breach of fiduciary duty.

WELL versed in startups, and getting a company past the start-up phase.

 

[rjack1282]

Send to be relevant to current discussion:

SpaceX fires at least 5 employees after internal letter criticizes CEO Elon Musk

The letter described the billionaire’s public behavior as “a frequent source of distraction and embarrassment” for SpaceX employees.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[_Redshift_]

Send to be relevant to current discussion:

SpaceX fires at least 5 employees after internal letter criticizes CEO Elon Musk

The letter described the billionaire’s public behavior as “a frequent source of distraction and embarrassment” for SpaceX employees.

www.nbcnews.com

Some market analysts have predicted that Tesla will have up to 10% attrition because of Elon’s tweets.

Its not surprising SpaceX fired the employees critical of their CEO, but some of the people who might voluntarily or involuntarily leave may not be easy to replace.

Twitter is another story, the attrition there might be higher, I am sure.