Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Elon & Twitter

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
How would that help? LITERALLY they can't get enough batteries for the cars they make now. LITERALLY they can't get the factories spun up faster to produce a lower price car.

You do understand that a decrease in price from the current 40k Model 3 to a 25k Model whatever would move things from a TAM (total addressable market) of 3-4 million cars per year (which they can't even meet currently) to a TAM of 10-12 million cars per year?

All a $25k car right now would do is push in millions of orders and then millions of frustrated customers.

If the supply chain is a problem then he could have just bought the supply chain.

Panasonic, which manufactures batteries, has a market cap of 21 billion.
Livent, a lithium mine, has a market cap of 3.7 billion.

Maybe there's a few more mining operations required, we'll call it 35 billion to acquire the entire supply chain. I'm sure the number is off but I think it's in the ballpark.

He would have saved roughly 9 billion, his reputation and he wouldn't be pulling his hair out trying to make these new acquisitions profitable. He would also have full vertical integration of Tesla vehicles. He could rid the EV battery manufacturing process of the specter of child slave labor.

So he's not powerless to improve the situation. Well, he might be powerless now since he's anchored himself to a dying bird.
 
If the supply chain is a problem then he could have just bought the supply chain.

Panasonic, which manufactures batteries, has a market cap of 21 billion.
Livent, a lithium mine, has a market cap of 3.7 billion.

Maybe there's a few more mining operations required, we'll call it 35 billion to acquire the entire supply chain. I'm sure the number is off but I think it's in the ballpark.

He would have saved roughly 9 billion, his reputation and he wouldn't be pulling his hair out trying to make these new acquisitions profitable. He would also have full vertical integration of Tesla vehicles. He could rid the EV battery manufacturing process of the specter of child slave labor.

So he's not powerless to improve the situation. Well, he might be powerless now since he's anchored himself to a dying bird.

No. Supply chains like this are not "bought". They have to be built.

Let's say, theoretically, Tesla could have bought the entire supply chain in 2021. It would still not have been large enough to have put out more than 2 mil EVs in total.

This has been covered ad nauseum in the investors' thread. There simply are not enough batteries and mines (Nickel, Lithium, etc.) to transition over things any faster.

Because of the pace that the current supply chain has gone at (Panasonic, LG, and even CATL), Tesla HAS moved outside of traditional auto and down into those verticals in the supply chain. They are building their own cells (and developing their own cells, completely separate tech from other cell producers). They are building their own Lithium refinery (Corpus Christi, TX). They are working through permitting to open their own Lithium mine in NV (permits for mines are notoriously slow, 5-7 years).

Buying up these companies would not have accelerated things significantly. And I'm sure more than one gov would have intervened to prevent Tesla from establishing a monopoly on the supply chain (EU is very wary of things like this).

Literally what you propose would not have been possible. EVERY last Li-Ion cell in the past could have been bought up by Tesla, and it would only get them to a fraction of what would have been needed to supply cells for a $35k car, much less a $25k car.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Buckminster
It’s part of the strategy...first the sport car...then the luxury car...the family car...the economy car. It all went to plan until he got to the family car (3&Y) and it became so popular that he had to build more giga factories to keep up with demand....but the economy car will come, as will the Cybertruck 😎...even revolutions require patience

I'm familiar with the orignal master plan. The cost of a gigafactory is what, around $10 billion? Twitter cost several times that.
 
No. Supply chains like this are not "bought". They have to be built.

Let's say, theoretically, Tesla could have bought the entire supply chain in 2021. It would still not have been large enough to have put out more than 2 mil EVs in total.

This has been covered ad nauseum in the investors' thread. There simply are not enough batteries and mines (Nickel, Lithium, etc.) to transition over things any faster.

Because of the pace that the current supply chain has gone at (Panasonic, LG, and even CATL), Tesla HAS moved outside of traditional auto and down into those verticals in the supply chain. They are building their own cells (and developing their own cells, completely separate tech from other cell producers). They are building their own Lithium refinery (Corpus Christi, TX). They are working through permitting to open their own Lithium mine in NV (permits for mines are notoriously slow, 5-7 years).

Buying up these companies would not have accelerated things significantly. And I'm sure more than one gov would have intervened to prevent Tesla from establishing a monopoly on the supply chain (EU is very wary of things like this).

Literally what you propose would not have been possible. EVERY last Li-Ion cell in the past could have been bought up by Tesla, and it would only get them to a fraction of what would have been needed to supply cells for a $35k car, much less a $25k car.

Alright. I don't read the investor thread much, there isn't enough drama.

So, more lithium, right? US has huge lithium reserves, but concerns mount over mining – DW – 12/15/2022 It looks like the US is an untapped goldmine here. There's difficulties in setting up mines but those seem to be quickly evaporating. The Trump administration made a huge push to cut red tape for such things. The Biden administration has just setup a strong incentive to churn out more EVs that are made in the US.

Seems like a better use of that 44 billion would have been to setup mining operations in these states that are mostly empty space. Think of the jobs it would bring in for rural Americans. Permitting may be slow but I'm pretty sure they'll have those permits done before Twitter becomes profitable.
 
Like no one saw it coming that Lithium is needed.

People have been seeing for a decade. It's colossal red tape to dig new mines in the US and EU. You get blocked at the local and state level by protestors, environmentalists (irony there), and lawsuits by the NIMBYs. At the federal level, you have to jump through tons of EPA regulations (and the EU equivalent).

It's why China has dominated the sector, they don't have the red tape.

I agree with you, better planning should have happened, but Tesla has been entering partnerships with existing mining companies for about 5 years now. They saw it coming, but it was hard to push the inertia of the industry.
 
I’m saying that he’s running Tesla very well…not sure how he could do better
Let's see...he could do better by realizing that he's the public face of Tesla, and everything he says and does, whether in his capacity as CEO of Tesla or on his own time, reflects on the company in the eyes of many potential customers. As such, he would do Tesla and its investors a favor by:

1. Shutting down his personal Twitter account and making no public statements other than those that are directly relevant to his role as CEO of Tesla or one of his other companies

2. Directing all people to tweet at the official Tesla Twitter account instead of his personal one and responding only through the official account

3. Ceasing to talk about and make promises relating to "FSD"
 
Let's see...he could do better by realizing that he's the public face of Tesla, and everything he says and does, whether in his capacity as CEO of Tesla or on his own time, reflects on the company in the eyes of many potential customers. As such, he would do Tesla and its investors a favor by:

1. Shutting down his personal Twitter account and making no public statements other than those that are directly relevant to his role as CEO of Tesla or one of his other companies

2. Directing all people to tweet at the official Tesla Twitter account instead of his personal one and responding only through the official account

3. Ceasing to talk about and make promises relating to "FSD"
Those are valid suggestions but they are all related to Elon’s management of himself…not his management of Tesla
 
I could care less, honestly.

I have a job I LOVE. I can do it from anywhere in the world. I don't ever intend to retire, but I may cut back my hours.

The entire "promise" of someone else paying for my retirement never set right with me. Ever. But, I don't trust people, and I trust politicians even less.

Someone else? Or something else?

If it's someone else than I agree. The average person should not get more in retirement benefits than what they put in plus investment gains.

If its something else like taxing mega corporations leveraging data from collected from humans going back as far as records started then I certainly don't mind getting way more than I put in.

I don't plan on ever actually retiring. All I plan on doing is transitioning from working for the mega corps to working for myself. I can't do it until I have sustainable income not dependent on actually making money working for myself.
 
I posted this in the main investor thread but here it is for your enjoyment as well.

I'm sure there will be lots of rational responses to this
/s

...

So, here is for the forum’s consideration some actual useful data on those $50k purchases and well done analysis published by the San Francisco Standard on Feb 20th, using official data from the California Energy Commission, which can be accessed directly via their wonderful interactive dashboard.

View attachment 920754

This is very relevant because California is the largest and most important state car market in America, it’s one of the most Democratic-leaning states, and it’s arguably the single-most culturally influential state in the country. Here’s some hard facts and numbers to demonstrate California’s status as a political stronghold for the Democratic Party, courtesy of Wikipedia.

View attachment 920759



Furthermore, it’s important to note:

1) CA leads the USA and most of the entire planet in EV adoption​
2) The two biggest urban areas in CA around San Francisco and Los Angeles are extremely D-dominated relative to the rest of the USA and even relative to the rest of the state​

If there were anywhere in the entire country and world where I would be concerned about seeing negative Tesla demand impacts of some of Elon’s more right-wing political views and his vocal criticisms of the current state of the Democratic Party that he has been expressing recently, it would be the LA and SF metro areas. Actually, I would especially look at the SF area because it leads California in EV adoption rates, because it is possibly the #1 most liberal area of the nation depending on where you want to draw the metro area boundaries, and because it's the one small region of the entire world that is most likely to contain people who care about what's been happening with Elon and his Twitter acquisition, his public criticism of local officials in Fremont and Alameda County, and his other recent extracurricular activities.

Fortunately, the data shows absolutely zero cause for concern (in the aggregate, anyway). As a matter of fact, it indicates wildly raging demand for Tesla vehicles that is at an all-time high with a robust trend for continued growth in the future, and this is especially true for the Bay Area as noted by The Standard:



View attachment 920716
(Red dots indicate Bay Area counties)


View attachment 920721
(Red circle indicates Bay Area)

At our Silicon Valley TMC investor meetup in February, I learned from @EinSV that San Mateo County now has 25% of all new vehicle purchases being Teslas. 1 out of 4, almost unbelievable. Indeed, per the CA Energy Commision dashboard, in San Mateo County in 2022 Tesla sold 11,320 cars out of 13,711 total BEVs (83% share) and 46,696 total vehicles (24.2% share). At a global scale, this market share would already put Tesla close to the 20M/year goal (this is not a reasonable extrapolation but it serves to give a sense of scale.) San Mateo contains much of Silicon Valley and tends to vote about 75% in favor of Democrats in most elections. Per Wikipedia, “Every city, town, and unincorporated area of San Mateo County has more registered Democrats than Republicans.”

The SF Standard continues:


View attachment 920724

This chart is critical because California's regulatory environment has made it the #1 hotbed in America for other car companies to sell compliance EVs at a loss in order to be eligible to participate in the state's absurdly lucrative automotive market. Despite facing this extreme handicap of competing against companies willing to price EVs at levels that generate negative gross profit margin, Tesla is still outselling everyone else combined and is steadily gaining EV market share. Let that sink in. This is just embarrassing. Also consider what this implies for the oft-repeated arguments that more competition and BEV options will reduce Tesla's competitiveness. California already has a lot of EV options, including many models that are not available for sale in significant numbers anywhere else in the nation, and California also has a decent charging non-Tesla infrastructure relative to almost all markets in the world, and yet...Tesla dominates.

For anyone who still wants to express concern about "Elon's antics", please describe your reasoning for why California and SF/SoCal are somehow not representative of EV adoption and leftist political trends in the rest of the country, or alternatively describe why you think this trend is going to reverse in the future despite having already continued unabated through the entire pandemic and Twitter saga.

Also, anyone who was surprised by Tesla's decision to double down on developing an engineering presence in Silicon Valley instead of Texas may want to take some time to sit down and have a deep meditation session to ponder why you're placing so much weight on politics instead of other factors related to the business. Palo Alto was a clear winning choice and Austin will not be on the same level for a very long time, if ever. Other locales have intensely competed with SV for decades to wrest away some of its magic and tech dominance and every attempt has, thus far, failed. Tesla was born in Silicon Valley and though it's going global now, it's still a Silicon Valley software and computer engineering company at its core and will remain so for the foreseeable future.
 
Do you want it to be higher than 83% of the BEV market and 24% of the entire vehicle market off of mostly just the 3&Y?

Is there any demonstrable evidence that insufficient demand in these areas the reason the market share isn't even higher, or is it that Tesla is choosing to allocate a portion of their finite supply of cars to locations other than the Bay Area and SoCal?
 
  • Like
Reactions: bkp_duke
Do you want it to be higher than 83% of the BEV market and 24% of the entire vehicle market off of mostly just the 3&Y?

Is there any demonstrable evidence that insufficient demand in these areas the reason the market share isn't even higher, or is it that Tesla is choosing to allocate a portion of their finite supply of cars to locations other than the Bay Area and SoCal?
If it's depressed by even a few percent in CA by Elon's "Antics", that can really add up across the country. I know of several people in my red state (NC) who have sworn off buying a Tesla.
 
If it's depressed by even a few percent in CA by Elon's "Antics", that can really add up across the country. I know of several people in my red state (NC) who have sworn off buying a Tesla.
Thanks for the anecdotal data. Do you know of any larger and more comprehensive data sets that could help us figure out the net effect after accounting for other factors like people who are now more interested, the mere exposure effect from all this attention and publicity, and potential hidden factors we're not thinking of?
 
  • Like
Reactions: bkp_duke
Show us 2023. This was last year, mostly before the antics ramped up.
2023 data is not yet available, but I have set a reminder for myself to come back and reply to this comment in January 2024.

That being said, I will make some incredibly bold predictions right now. Let's see if they end up being correct.

I predict that (unless there are unforeseen production shutdowns or other external factors that inhibit Tesla's ability to produce or deliver cars for reasons obviously unrelated to demand) the 2023 data will show:
  • Tesla once again setting a new all-time sales record in California and in every single county in the state with at least 420 EVs sold in 2022
  • It will happen as measured by absolute number of vehicles sold, relative percentage of the BEV market, and relative percentage of the overall light-duty vehicle
  • Tesla's degree of sales dominance once again exhibiting a strong positive correlation with the percentage of Democratic voters in each respective county in California in 2023 elections
  • Tesla still having a higher overall market share in California than in any other US state
  • San Francisco County, San Mateo County, and Santa Clara County continuing to lead the pack in terms of Tesla's market share despite these being the very counties with the most concentration of people who feel strongly about the Twitter situation
What do you think, have I lost my mind?
 
Last edited:
2023 data is not yet available, but I have set a reminder for myself to come back and reply to this comment in January 2024.

That being said, I will make some incredibly bold predictions right now. Let's see if they end up being correct.

I predict that (unless there are unforeseen production shutdowns or other external factors that inhibit Tesla's ability to produce or deliver cars) the 2023 data will show:
  • Tesla once again setting a new all-time sales record in California and in every single county in the state with at least 420 EVs sold in 2022
  • It will happen as measured by absolute number of vehicles sold, relative percentage of the BEV market, and relative percentage of the overall light-duty vehicle
  • Tesla's degree of sales dominance will once again exhibit a strong positive correlation with the percentage of Democratic voters in each respective county in California
  • Tesla will still have a higher market share in California than in any other US state
What do you think, have I lost my mind?
I don't think you would be using sales figures from 2022 as evidence that Elon's antics haven't had a negative effect on sales if you were thinking straight.

As for the rest, I hope you are right, but we have to factor in the price cuts and tax incentives, so it might not be head to head.
 
I don't think you would be using sales figures from 2022 as evidence that Elon's antics haven't had a negative effect on sales if you were thinking straight.
It's not like all the controversy happened at the end of the year. If you think this is not the case, I invite you to revisit the early post history in this very thread dating back to April or any of the other active threads in which his political activity has been discussed.

He has been increasingly vocal about his problems with the Democratic Party as well as California and local Bay Area officials since 2020 yet Tesla's sales in CA keep rising and rising even faster than the EV market in CA. He started publicly criticizing Twitter's management on March 24th, announced intent for a takeover bid on April 11th, argued more and more in public, and completed the acquisition in October. He tweeted in May "In the past I voted Democrat, because they were (mostly) the kindness party. But they have become the party of division & hate, so I can no longer support them and will vote Republican. Now, watch their dirty tricks campaign against me unfold." Elon announced in June that he was leaning towards supporting Republican governor Desantis of Florida for President in 2024.

2022 data is therefore definitely relevant evidence for evaluating the effect of these controversies and shift to supporting Republicans.

Similar sales numbers observed here in the Seattle metro area, by the way. Approximately as blue as LA & SF metro areas.

As for the rest, I hope you are right, but we have to factor in the price cuts and tax incentives, so it might not be head to head.
Ok then, let me extend the same predictions to also apply to year over year comparisons for 2024, 2025, and 2026. Reminders are now set to recur every January.

Until then I'm gonna go back to not reading this thread again. See you all in nine months.
 
Last edited:
1679641530737.jpeg

 
Status
Not open for further replies.