Elon, Where is the FSD features you promised?

[u00mem9]

If you have an ounce of objectivity and paid for FSD, you have to acknowledge you were scammed.

This isn't a case of optimism on Tesla's behalf. They knew they had lost the system supplier, and then Bs'd the customers to get them out of a bad situation. Remember the poor saps that sat around waiting for hardware 2.0 and then ordered as soon as announced in September?

I find it funny that you can't comment if you don't own the car...but if you bought the car, you should have known Elon always lies...

The Model S is amazing in spite of Elon Musk, not because of him. He great contributions aside from financial trickery, are mounting 200lb doors vertically and mounting seats on pedestals...He is put on a BS tour just like Mr. Honda was to prevent him forcing bad ideas on the engineers.

 

[HankLloydRight]

There is no way any court in America will let Tesla keep your money for FSD without delivering it. Simply not going to happen. Tesla is going to lose BIG on this AP2 fiasco. There is already a class action lawsuit in progress. What Tesla has done is pure and simple fraud. Stealing money from trusting consumers, in my opinion.

Disagree. Anyone who bought FSD knew it was a future promised feature based on many factors, including non-specific delivery dates and things entirely out of Tesla's control**. I don't think Elon's tweets would hold up as corporate policy/promises/deliverables. If someone bought FSD, they bought it with the car. If they also chose to finance the car with a short lease before that feature is released, those are very independent things. Just because someone didn't get this new feature within the lease term? Tough noogies. Elon could come out tomorrow and say FSD is now finished, but oops, sorry, it's not legal to use anywhere yet. Same result.


** Here's what it's always said when ordering FSD:

Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction. It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available, as this is highly dependent on local regulatory approval.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

Amazing how many call the OP a whiner for stating a fact. Blows me away at how many Tesla owners see Tesla as a company that can do no wrong, even when they are WRONG.

I don't call the OP's messages, or any others like it "whining", I call it holding a company accountable for not doing what they say the will How many times has Trump been bashed for not keeping a promise. How many times have other companies been bashed, sued or closed for not meeting their promises. Tesla is unique yes, but there are competitors coming and if they don't change their ways, they'll be gone too. So rather than supporting their mistakes and putting blinders on, join in and support those that express their concerns rather than bashing them for standing up. We'll all benefit if the BUYERS stay united. Tesla is taking your money just like they're taking the OP's money. All customers of any company should hold that company accountable, no matter how great the company may be.

What blows me away most about the full sell driving that I paid $3,000 for is that my lease is up early next year and just found out that Tesla will NOT REFUND my money if full self driving doesn't become functional before the end of my lease. How can they possibly not refund money on something they NEVER DELIVERED?? If it's not activated in the next 4-5 months, that means I paid them $3,000 for something and got absolutely noting in return. If anyone here can make a logical, legal case that would stand up in court for how that's right, I'd love to hear it.

And then I'll give you my number and sell you my private electric airplane that can be piloted without a license or physical pilot. We're in the finishing stage of development. Right now, you pay $1,000,000 for the plane and another $200,000 for the Tesla tech added to it, to which we hope gets done fleet wide in the next 3-5 years. The whole "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today", but in reverse.

I'm confused how you ended up with a lease that's up early early next year. As far as I know, AP2 hardware only went out in October of last year. Is this a 12 month lease? And why on earth would you get a 12 month lease with a feature they advertise as coming at some unknown point in the future?

I understand people being upset with EAP; it's late. FSD had no official timeline whatsoever. The only mention of anything approaching a timeline was Musk saying he was confident that a demonstration(LA to NY) could be done late this year.

 

[EV-lutioin]

This is a tough one. The very nature of innovation requires one to dream big and change the paradigm beyond current thinking. Naturally, that involves making statements that seem incredible at the time and there's always the risk that your statements overshoot reality. Elon Musk, Tesla and Space X are constantly trying to change the paradigm of current thinking and sometimes they pull it off and sometimes they don't. I wouldn't get too caught up in the specifics of every statement Musk makes, he has an amazing track record of eventually pulling off the impossible.... even if it sometimes takes more time than he thinks. People thought he was crazy when he started a rocket company and then said he would reuse the rockets and land them on a barge in the middle of the ocean, but he did it. People thought he was crazy when he said he would build an electric car that everyone would want, I am sure Mercedes and BMW wish they had taken him more seriously. People thought he was crazy when he said he would disrupt the entire auto industry and push them to make EV's when gas prices are at historic lows and now every major car company is stumbling over themselves to get an EV to market. As far as autopilot is concerned, there may have been a bit too much hubris after the breakup with Mobileye, Tesla thought they could do it on their own and they will, but clearly it's taking longer than they expected. No big deal, it will happen, it's just a bit behind schedule... innovation involves some risk. Now about that Mars thing!

 

[NerdUno]

Disagree. Anyone who bought FSD knew it was a future promised feature based on many factors, including non-specific delivery dates and things entirely out of Tesla's control**. I don't think Elon's tweets would hold up as corporate policy/promises/deliverables. If someone bought FSD, they bought it with the car. If they also chose to finance the car with a short lease before that feature is released, those are very independent things. Just because someone didn't get this new feature within the lease term? Tough noogies. Elon could come out tomorrow and say FSD is now finished, but oops, sorry, it's not legal to use anywhere yet. Same result.


** Here's what it's always said when ordering FSD:

You are, no doubt, aware that Elon said six months ago that FSD would be ready in about 3 months, but definitely in 6 months. Guess what? It's birthday week for FSD. Dreaming is one thing. Outright misrepresentation is quite another.

 

[Magus]

I think saying he was lying is quite dramatic and not true. He imposes lofty goals- most if not all of which he meets though often times late.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

You are, no doubt, aware that Elon said six months ago that FSD would be ready in about 3 months, but definitely in 6 months. Guess what? It's birthday week for FSD. Dreaming is one thing. Outright misrepresentation is quite another.

I don't know why people assume that FSD features noticeably departing from EAP ones = FSD is completely done and released to everyone. If this was just you, just this once, I'd chalk it up to an accidental statement. But this seems to be a constant refrain: people heavily exaggerating what was said and then complaining Tesla didn't meet that.

Nobody said FSD would be "ready" right now. Hell, long before he said what you're misquoting, he said they're planning a demonstration of FSD at the end of this year, 5 months from now.

 

[Lex]

I can only echo the sentiments of most of the owners here -- if you're already driving a Tesla, you're willing to set your car's clock to "Elon time" because it's just that good.

I'm not in an AP2-hardware car so I don't have the anxiety of awaiting future promises, so that may help with my perspective here, but I for one would seriously consider taking the FSD purchase price and instead buying $TSLA or investing it otherwise as it could yet be a long wait, for whatever the reasons.... the more I use AP1 on public roads, the more convinced I am that full self driving is going to take a change in all drivers' behaviour as much as it needs the new tech. There is a serious level of lunacy on the roads today eg. people "just assuming" all sorts of things from other human drivers.

 

[R.S]

Woah, is that an electric car that I can plug into my garage and drive on the freeway at 90MPH and not pay attention, because that would be awesome. Oh and is it available right now? If so, bye bye Tesla and bye bye weeping. (sarcasm in case it was not obvious before)

You plug your cars into your garage? A weird way of describing what I call parking, but pretty sure the Audi can be "plugged into your garage". EV comes next year, or so. 35 MPH on freeways, as far as I know, but L3

 

[calisnow]

Surprisingly to you, I'm sure, none of what Hank said actually impacts the car's driving. It's still a great car to drive. I'm not sure why you are taking this so personally? lol

He isn't takin anything personally he was just responding with disagreement to a public comment on a public thread. Not sure why you interpret his response otherwise.

 

[Lex]

So maybe I should state clearly that today I would not trust being in my expensive Model S with it in total control while on the roads in my Province of Ontario in Canada today if it had the AP2 hardware and magically had the Full Self Driving software. And Ontario is known as a "nanny state" with decent roads, signs, etc.

Here are my top 3 reasons today that prevent me from getting excited by full self driving:

1. Potholes
Toronto slowly sinks thanks to its geology, meaning that there are some sunken sewer and manhole covers that are frankly dangerous and will at the least cause major stress and wear and/or damage to suspension if not avoided. Large diameter / low profile tires are known to 'explode' (tires and/or wheels).

2. Emergency vehicles
I try to encourage others to open their eyes and pull over by being a role model. I can see and hear sirens that I doubt AP2 will see (and it cannot hear). Anyone who has had a loved one in an Ambulance can certainly relate to how seconds can help here.

3. Human beings
These are everywhere and even though FSD may be coming soon to fancy electric cars, the vast majority will still be controlled by a lot of overworked people who are probably tired and/or frustrated. I probably cancel AP1 as much or more to avoid humans than I do because it gets confused.

I love technology don't get me wrong but this is not something that I'm on the edge of my seat awaiting.

I'll take some phone mirroring or SMS integration any time now though

 

[CalBlue 85D]

So maybe I should state clearly that today I would not trust being in my expensive Model S with it in total control while on the roads in my Province of Ontario in Canada today if it had the AP2 hardware and magically had the Full Self Driving software. And Ontario is known as a "nanny state" with decent roads, signs, etc.

Here are my top 3 reasons today that prevent me from getting excited by full self driving:

1. Potholes
Toronto slowly sinks thanks to its geology, meaning that there are some sunken sewer and manhole covers that are frankly dangerous and will at the least cause major stress and wear and/or damage to suspension if not avoided. Large diameter / low profile tires are known to 'explode' (tires and/or wheels).

2. Emergency vehicles
I try to encourage others to open their eyes and pull over by being a role model. I can see and hear sirens that I doubt AP2 will see (and it cannot hear). Anyone who has had a loved one in an Ambulance can certainly relate to how seconds can help here.

3. Human beings
These are everywhere and even though FSD may be coming soon to fancy electric cars, the vast majority will still be controlled by a lot of overworked people who are probably tired and/or frustrated. I probably cancel AP1 as much or more to avoid humans than I do because it gets confused.

I love technology don't get me wrong but this is not something that I'm on the edge of my seat awaiting.

I'll take some phone mirroring or SMS integration any time now though

I think you bring up great examples and I'll add one more, people directing traffic during a hazardous situation. How many times have you been driving and come upon a situation where a person (sometime official and in uniform and sometimes just a regular citizen) is directing traffic to get other cars around a hazard? It often involves disregarding signs, road markings or traffic lights in order to move other cars to a safe location. FSD and our transportation networks are nowhere close to being able to resolve these types of situations without human intervention.

FSD is really going to need smart roads to become a reality and some type of backup for situations that don't fall into any of the programmed responses.

 

[number12]

I think you bring up great examples and I'll add one more, people directing traffic during a hazardous situation. How many times have you been driving and come upon a situation where a person (sometime official and in uniform and sometimes just a regular citizen) is directing traffic to get other cars around a hazard? It often involves disregarding signs, road markings or traffic lights in order to move other cars to a safe location. FSD and our transportation networks are nowhere close to being able to resolve these types of situations without human intervention.

FSD is really going to need smart roads to become a reality and some type of backup for situations that don't fall into any of the programmed responses.

Pipe dreams for this decade.

I'm just curious when EAP with exceed AP1, and FSD exceeds EAP..

Both which are acheviable.. and just terrible naming for FSD.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

No surprise, then, when Tesla explicitly wrote that EAP was "expected" to be rolled out in "an" OTA update "in December". If Tesla expected this, why shouldn't we?

(@AnxietyRanger you better put up that screenshot soon or I'll have to send out a search party for you.)

I am here to serve.

And I completely agree, I do not think anyone reading/listening to Tesla in late 2016 really expected EAP to be a no-show still soon a year later and even AP1 parity being ways off. Tesla really misled us on that one.

And don't hold your breath for other companies matching Tesla any time soon. The brand new flagship A8 will let you look away from the steering wheel in bumper to bumper traffic and forces you to take control as soon as the speed goes over something like 37mph. AP1 has been doing that for awhile now and while I technically shouldn't turn away from looking outside, we all know that in slow traffic you basically get no nags with AP1. It is essentially what Audi is offering and won't kick you out of the party at 37mph.

Not really. Audi will take responsibility for that autonomous driving so you can read a book. And it doesn't force control as soon as the scenario changes, but in around 10 seconds, so you always have time to react. That is a completely different scenario from AP1...

The thing is, other manufacturers have been working on autonomous much longer and much more rigorously than Tesla, which is just very aggressive in their roll-out method. It is hard to compare actual levels of progress due to this difference.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I wonder how many TMC users are also posting on Audi fansites about their "disappointment" that the L3 automation in the A8 is so restricted in both use and market as to be only valuable as an Audi marketing tool ("we did L3 first"), or why Audi owners need to buy a SIM card & LTE subscription for their new dino-burner to get online services, but still need to physcially take their cars back to a dealer to apply a software update, etc, etc.

There is a complete lack of understanding of OPs point here, though. Intentional or not.

OPs disappointment is Tesla's over-promise, under-deliver. If Tesla only communicated what they can deliver (or even deliver beyond what they communicate), this would be much better - I know it would be much better in my view and I believe OPs view as well. So if Audi delivers Level 3 up to 37 mph, as promised, then that's a promise kept.

There is now a long list of Tesla hubris where they have over-promised and under-delivered, sometimes permanently for the buyer, other times in form of long delays that diminish value of such changes e.g. due to lease lengths (P85D HP, 90 kWh battery meeting specs over revisions, certain missing AP1 features, counter gate, peak rate throttling, EAP timeline, soon FSD feature timeline, UI fixes, the browser etc.)...

Not only does Tesla/Elon get timelines wrong constantly, they also tend to fix many issues simply through new products, which does not help the one left with the old product (e.g. P85D overpromises were "fixed" with P90D, P90D V1 overpromises were "fixed" with V2, V3 batteries etc., missing AP1 features were "fixed" by introducing the AP2...). Warranty cost issues have been "fixed" by clandestine software updates limiting the product after sale etc. This is by now very common knowledge on TMC, I doubt anyone can really deny this.

And this without even going to the quarterly demand lever games, where the take away, give back free Supercharging shenanigans were probably the worst...

What's more, there is more and more the sense that this could be intentional, that we could be intentionally being misled so that they could keep meeting whatever quarterly financial figures they need... At first it was somewhat believable that this was just a "communcations issue", but now more and more it seems like a possible policy issue. That this could be done on purpose. And that's not a very nice feeling to have.

 

[Lex]

I think you bring up great examples and I'll add one more, people directing traffic during a hazardous situation.

Oh yes, and construction in general. Good add.

And how about this one: inaccurate map data. We've all heard of humans driving into lakes when being told and they're typically into self preservation and such.

How about bridge closures.

Oh and icy roads. Well, winter period.

 

[lunitiks]

missing AP1 features were "fixed" by introducing the AP2

While the other things you mentioned have been "fixed", this one has not been fixed in any shape or form

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I don't know why people assume that FSD features noticeably departing from EAP ones = FSD is completely done and released to everyone. If this was just you, just this once, I'd chalk it up to an accidental statement. But this seems to be a constant refrain: people heavily exaggerating what was said and then complaining Tesla didn't meet that.

Nobody said FSD would be "ready" right now. Hell, long before he said what you're misquoting, he said they're planning a demonstration of FSD at the end of this year, 5 months from now.

I think you are the one doing the misrepresenting here. I don't see anyone expecting FSD to have been ready today/tomorrow. What they expected was Tesla to be true to their word and have FSD only features out by today/tomorrow, as announced by their CEO...

While the other things you mentioned have been "fixed", this one has not been fixed in any shape or form

Agreed. Though I'm not sure even all the other things have really been fixed yet, just showing a pattern that the "fix" moves to the next product generation and the old one is forgotten. Sometimes getting that "fix" will mean several new product generations to go through...

 

[Rafaelm]

Will be shocked if Tesla can ever deliver anything "enhanced" without a hardware swap, which frankly isn't ever happening. I've written this car and Tesla off as a loss/learning experience. #NeverTesla

I wouldn't go that far. Elon takes huge risks and AP2 isn't panning out as expected for sure though.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

One thing that is striking is that we are not even really discussing anymore the time range Elon gave. We are just discussing missing the 6 months. Most of us are just that disillusioned with Elon's comms.

But in reality Elon communicated a time range of 3-6 months for FSD noticeably departing features, which has pretty big implications for customers thinking about whether or not to check that FSD box on their order.

Here we are at the end of the six month window and crickets. Elon should know better by now. And I think the saddest concern is, it is possible he knows better and still does this.