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Elon's "350kW... a children's toy" tweet and the Model 3

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by Bangor Bob, Jan 5, 2017.

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  1. Bangor Bob

    Bangor Bob Member

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    So just some blue sky thinking...

    There's been a lot of chatter about truly high-power charging recently, with both the Chademo and CCS groups coming close to finalizing 350kW charging, Chargepoint and EVgo starting to deploy hardware, etc.

    And then Elon tweets:

    350kW.PNG

    Now, in order to get these charge rates, you need voltage. On the current side, everyone is topping-out around 350-400 amps. But increasing the voltage allows for more power at the same amps, same cable size, same amount of heat.

    So. What are the odds that the M3 is going to have a nominally-800V+ battery pack? Yes, that potentially requires upgrades to a lot of superchargers (upgraded ones would be backwards-compatible with the existing fleet, however).

    Or maybe Elon's just teasing about the charger for a Tesla Semi Truck...
     
  2. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    800V pack won't change the max charging C-rate of the battery itself.

    I'm no electrical engineer... but if we make an assumption that they've developed a cell capable of charging at a much higher C-rate, I can't think of a reason they couldn't take in 1000 V @ 400 amps and use an internal dc-dc converter to lower the voltage with a heat tolerant connection straight to the battery to handle the higher current.
     
  3. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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    Hopefully the 3 comes with the capability to charge at these rates. Because currently, any type of lengthy road trip will be a pita due to the incessant, lengthy stops for charging.
     
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  4. deonb

    deonb Supporting Member

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    It's really not. Try it out.
     
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  5. thimel

    thimel Member

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    Such a D.C. To D.C. Converter would be very large and very expensive, comparable to a supercharger cabinet.
     
  6. jelloslug

    jelloslug Active Member

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    Having done several lengthy trips in my MS, nope, it's not that bad.
     
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  7. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    "Incessant"? Definition: "continuing without pause or interruption".

    So your use of that word is incorrect in that context. I do agree with your use of the word "lengthy". However, I have made numerous road trips in my S ranging from a few hundred up to 3,000 miles and I found them pleasurable. Looking forward to many more!
     
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  8. Bangor Bob

    Bangor Bob Member

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    I see it as more along the lines of getting to near-parity with gassers for travel refuelling. Taking away a hammer the ICE crew uses to hit BEVs.

    I sort-of took note of times on my last long trip - ~600 miles, Bowmanville, ON to somewhat north of Bangor, ME. Two fuel stops. The first was < 5 minutes at Bowmanville, ON, and the second was 7 minutes at Cornwall, ON. (Based on how many minutes the ETA slipped on nav.) There were probably 3 additional comfort breaks of ~ 5 minutes.

    Supercharging on the same route would have been at Kingston, Cornwall (long, to skip going into Montreal) and Magog (to 100%), with a "splash" on the destination charger at Sugarloaf to avoid going 30 miles out-of-the-way to the Augusta supercharger. (Brewer isn't on the way either).

    My other semi-regular long trip still needs a supercharger on I80 in central PA. EV Trip Planner says it'll take 16 hours going via I76, it's 10-12 hours via gasser depending on traffic. Hopefully next time we do that one we'll have a 3 with some form of autopilot...

    TL;DR - Supercharging is way better than other BEV charging alternatives, but could still be improved vs. gas station "recharge rates."
     
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  9. jsmay311

    jsmay311 Member

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    #9 jsmay311, Jan 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
    I think the fact alone that all existing SC's would be incompatible (unless/until they were upgraded) makes this a non-starter, at least for

    The one idea that I've seen thrown around a bit is having a ~400V nominal pack with 2 "halves" in parallel that could be switched to series during charging to double the voltage if/when connected to a higher-voltage charger. This setup could remain backwards compatible with "old" chargers by keeping it in parallel during charging.

    Do any smart electrical engineers know if this is a viable idea or not? (I know it doesn't help with the C-rate of the cells, but assuming the cells could handle the higher power.)
     
  10. igotzzoom

    igotzzoom Supporting Member

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    I doubt the supercharger lines could be as bad as Costco gas lines most of the time. Besides, I'll be doing the majority of my charging at home. Superchargers will be mainly for longer road trips.
     
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  11. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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    No. It definitely would. I make a 7-hour one-way drive several times a year (so nothing major, though I have in the past driven Florida<>Ohio once/twice per year also).

    I can do my 7-hour drive with one pit stop (gas, food, restroom). I really don't need more than 15-20 minutes. Even if I need to make a second stop, I still won't be delayed anywhere close to an hour in total.

    But using EVTripPlanner with an S60 with 19" wheels (which is as close to the base battery/wheel 3 as you can likely get), it calculates 2.5 hours of charging time. An extra 2 hours of travel and I haven't even left the state? That's absolutely pita-level.

    Look, if you like taking significantly longer to travel from point A to point B, good for you. That's terrific. It's wonderful. I'm happy for all of you. But most of the world disagrees with you. If the purpose of my trip is to get to point B, that means I'm not at all interested in spending several extra hours of my day sitting on highway exits in towns I otherwise would never visit.

    Was I willing to deal with the additional hassle - because for me it IS an hassle - of longer travel times on shorter/moderate-range trips? Yes. Was I willing to deal with it on longer drives like said Ohio<>Florida route? Absolutely not (hello, airport). But charging 4 times as fast would be an huge deal/improvement. That wouldn't be much different than my current 7-hour drive. And it would open up the possibility of me driving interstate instead of just intra.

    Current Tesla owners shouldn't be telling people, "Oh, it's not so bad" or "Oh, you'll actually like the additional rest while driving." That's just not how the rest of the world works. The rest of the world wants the convenience of fast refueling like is currently available at gas stations. The rest of the world wants the convenience of longer range than current EVs don't allow for. There shouldn't be Baghdad Bob-ing of the issue.
     
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  12. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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    Bloom. Nailed it.
     
  13. tomas

    tomas Only partially psycho

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    Remember that all of us Tesla drivers were ICE drivers for years. When we say it's not that bad, it is based upon experience both ways. Don't lecture us. Perhaps the most telling statistic is that Tesla drivers take more road trips than average drives. It is not because we are masochists. Yes, faster charging would be welcome. But it really is not that bad. Take a 1 hour meal break on your 7 hour drive. Take another hour to catch up on emails and a couple of calls. Now you've broken even and will get to destination rested and fed vs cranky and hungry. I think we train ourselves to expedite road trips because they are nasty and we want them to be over. What if they were not so miserable?

    Besides, there's no way that the extra breaks on road trips will EVER even APPROACH the many hours of gas station time avoided by overnight charging at home.

    I won't criticize your race to get there paradigm. Been there. Hope you try the other way sometime. It's not so bad.
     
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  14. deonb

    deonb Supporting Member

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    That's because "most of the world" don't know better yet.

    Look - what if I tell you I can give you a cellphone with batteries that last 2 weeks and can be recharged in 5 minutes. Only catch is - every 2 weeks you have to bring it back to the AT&T store to get recharged...

    Sounds dumb right?

    That's what "most of the world" sounds like to a Tesla driver.
     
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  15. Dan Detweiler

    Dan Detweiler Member

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    This really is pretty simple...if the base Model 3 isn't going to do it for you, buy the bigger battery. That, or buy an ICE. It's really that simple. Nobody is trying to mislead you. The statistics are there for you to consider. Do what's best for you.

    Dan
     
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  16. landis

    landis Member

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    Still waiting for my M3, but back in 2013 my sister was astounded how a 10 hour trip, with additional 10-15 min rest/walk breaks about every two hours made the trip by car manageable. Previously she preferred air travel with 3+1 hour logistics for each end.

    I've already used EVTripPlanner (S60 with 19" wheels) to model this same trip and it would be essentially the same timing.
     
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  17. Garlan Garner

    Garlan Garner Well-Known Member

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    The latest version of Tesla's Supercharger brought the capacity to 145 kW. That means it is over 350 kW that would be something else entirely. After the unveiling of the Supercharger in 2012, Tesla CTO JB Straubel said that Tesla aims to bring the charging down to 5 to 10 minutes: “It’s not going to happen in a year from now. It’s going to be hard. But I think we can get down to five to 10 minutes."
     
  18. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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    I addressed quite clearly what I am willing to deal with.
     
  19. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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    Except it's not a race. That's a logical fallacy.

    Spending even more time traveling than one already does, just to make the same trip, is a pita. Period.

    That's why I said I hope the 3 is compatible with these more advanced chargers. It just happens that a lot of folks have gotten "sore" over my comments and are now incapable of objectively discussing how it would be great to no longer have to spend 30+% of your trip charging.
     
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  20. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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    I think you're in the wrong thread.
     

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