Elon's Model 3 Deception

[Dutchie]

super disappointed, no way the base Model 3, which is the only version we can afford, is a better car than even a base Acura TLX. Yeah the TLX is an ICE, which sucks, but it comes with leather, heated seats, decent UI, and unlimited range.

My wife has been trusting my regurgitation of Elon's "this will be an amazing car, even at the base model" message, but after last night we're firmly in the market for an Accord or TLX.

Just a shame.

Acura has unlimited range???? You mean you never have to put gas in it, never have to change oils or other liquid s?? Wow!

 

[Stolz25]

It does contribute, keep in mind many of the complaints about S/X were from how there was very little feedback from the road compared to say a BMW.

That might be my least favorite part about reviews. The guys reviewing cars want everything to feel like a race car.

Before I got my solstice one of the main complaints was that you don't feel the road. When I got it I thought I felt the road plenty.

While it'll be nice if the model 3 has a sporty feel, the roads here suck. I don't want to feel every bump, but it gets knocks in the reviews if you don't.

 

[Vitold]

Elon originally planned mass producing M3 in 2020. You get it sooner but not everything right away.

He also said that Model X had too many things crammed at the same time which caused a lot of headaches and delays. Model 3 is designed for easier manufacturing - meaning less delays and problems.

Would you prefer delayed M3 but with more features that you like? I think there a lot of people who are happy with what M3 offers right now. You just need to wait a little longer.

Lastly, for Tesla to survive at current valuation they absolutely need to make a lot of M3 at healthy margins. Anything that stands in a way of that, such as feature creep is bad for its future.

 

[AustinPowers]

This post clearly illustrates why I get annoyed with some of the rampant speculation that eventually turns into *fact* for people visiting the forum.

Sorry, Bonnie, as much as I love your well-spoken comments, you are wrong in one important aspect: the OP didn't cite speculations from the forum or other questionable sources, the four bullet points he cited were quotes from Elon himself!

Sure, much might have had to change for various reasons, but I can fully understand he OP's disappointment. I am a realist enough to not have believed all these quotes at face value when they were uttered, but the notions behind them I thought were still Elon's goals - that imho he missed. I think I will still go through with my reservation (even though I now know that I will have to wait even longer than I had feared), but my enthusiasm is slowly waning. Let's hope that the electric BMW 3-series doesn't hit the road in late 2018 as well, otherwise I will certainly be tempted...

 

[JeffK]

super disappointed, no way the base Model 3, which is the only version we can afford, is a better car than even a base Acura TLX. Yeah the TLX is an ICE, which sucks, but it comes with leather, heated seats, decent UI, and unlimited range.

The base TLX has:
less cargo space
shorter warranty
17 in wheels
no ultrasonic sensors
no remote start
no navigation
it's not as quick as the tesla
higher maintenance costs
higher cost per mile to drive.

 

[206er]

Acura has unlimited range???? You mean you never have to put gas in it, never have to change oils or other liquid s?? Wow!

filling up only takes like 5-7 mins, oil change every year (we only drive like 5k miles per year). so not literally unlimited, but better than having to wait a half hour at a supercharger 2 hours into our trip.

I wanted Model 3 to be anazing, but the base model barely conpetes with a Civic.

 

[JeffK]

but better than having to wait a half hour at a supercharger 2 hours into our trip.

You drive 110 mph on average ... geez

 

[206er]

The base TLX has:
less cargo space
shorter warranty
17 in wheels
no ultrasonic sensors
no remote start
no navigation
it's not as quick as the tesla
higher maintenance costs
higher cost per mile to drive.

we're upgrading from an ILX, so really anything "better" than that will be an improvement. We currently have leather and power heated seats and tech package too (which is a joke), but we were able to get the car for a total of around $25k a few years ago.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

filling up only takes like 5-7 mins, oil change every year (we only drive like 5k miles per year). so not literally unlimited, but better than having to wait a half hour at a supercharger 2 hours into our trip.

I wanted Model 3 to be anazing, but the base model barely conpetes with a Civic.

If you only drive 5,000 miles a year, why are you even looking at anything that starts at 35K anyway? Drop $500 on a used Corolla and be done with it.

 

[Jayc]

Never thought I'd have to say this but I really hope Tesla gets to face tough competition from Europe very soon. Otherwise Tesla has this tendency to entangle themselves with their own Model S and thereby forget who the real competition is. And this whole international market-comes-last attitude has to get a good beating.

 

[206er]

You drive 110 mph on average ... geez

lol, I fill up at around the quarter tank remaining mark. My wife has run out of gas several times so when the gas guage hits a quarter I natuarlly start freaking out

 

[mhan00]

nor am I all that interested in doing so after last night...

Later.

 

[206er]

If you only drive 5,000 miles a year, why are you even looking at anything that starts at 35K anyway? Drop $500 on a used Corolla and be done with it.

really wanted a Tesla, believe in Elon's vision (just not willing to spend $35k for an electric bare bones Civic). I actually bike to/from work every day, so the car is only used for groceries/road trips/getting our toddler around town.

 

[DrivingTheFuture]

Your about to get flamed....
But, I kind of have to agree with you on most your point.
Some of the things Elon said can be easily spun to explain the seemingly contradictory nature, but others not so much. For example the "Oh so little faith" comment is accurate when applied to the long range model, but it is a $9k upgrade.... I am happy with the model 3 in every way except pricing. I mistakenly let myself believe I was getting a baby model S for $35K. It turns out it's really $50K. So, while I *might* still do it, that's a lot of money for my household. I was disappointed with the base model range and impressed with the long range model's range. It's just the money thing. Probably good news for me as a stock holder, less so as someone who has to pony up $10k over what I budgeted for...

It's my understanding that the 9k upgrade price is for the "Initial Production" cars which come with premium features/ interior from what I've been able to gather online. This being said, I understand the confusion (I was confused even till this morning) since I was at the event last night, am a reservation holder, yet did not get any of this info in either my email or at the event but from reading a story written by Electrek this morning. I think Tesla could have been a little more clear by stating more in the keynote last night or sending all Res holders an email, instead of us having to dig to find these facts. But again, this probably helps in anti selling the car, because my goodness do they have a lot of orders to get through and I'm sure the last thing they want right now is more Model 3 orders to pile up which could lead to more impatient/ frustrated customers who are new to this whole early adopter thing.

 

[mhan00]

really wanted a Tesla, believe in Elon's vision (just not willing to spend $35k for an electric bare bones Civic). I actually bike to/from work every day, so the car is only used for groceries/road trips/getting our toddler around town.

Then buy a used Leaf for cheap and revel in never, ever having to go to a gas station or wait in the obscene lines at a Costco station ever again. I LOVED driving my barebones Leaf with even fewer options than the base 3 (not even close really) because driving electric was incredible. Smooth acceleration at all times, no lag from my accelerator like I had in my previous Lexus ES330, enough oomph to jump off the line from stop lights to get ahead of cars next to me to comfortably change lanes to get to my turn with no engine noise, etc. For your occasional road trips, rent and put the miles on someone else's car. As a bonus, get the damage waiver insurance for complete peace of mind when driving and parking in unfamiliar areas, which increases the chances of minor accidents.

Honestly, you clearly have a different definition of "best car" for the value. For me, it's all of what I mentioned that made me love driving electric. For you, it's clearly a bunch of options.

 

[TheCaptain67]

It's my understanding that the 9k upgrade price is for the "Initial Production" cars which come with premium features/ interior from what I've been able to gather online.

$9000 is the cost of the Long Range battery upgrade, and the cost has nothing to do with initial production run or premium package. Tesla did say that the initial prod run would be long range versions with premium package, so if you have an early reservation adding those options puts you at the head of the queue.

yet did not get any of this info in either my email or at the event but from reading a story written by Electrek this morning.

Tesla did post options packages and pricing last night, which was copied verbatim in the Eletrek article. See Press Kit | Tesla . I do agree 100% that Tesla did a TERRIBLE job last night in providing detailed info to reservation holders. The press kit info (or at least a link) should have been part of Elon's presentation.

 

[Timo]

Elon is correct - you cannot get a better car for $35K. I own two S's - you cannot buy a betyer sedan for any price - and I say that knowing I do not have coat hooks, that an S Class is quieter at speed etc. The trouble with the Model 3 crowd is they have no point of comparison - they belong to an economic group that can't afford the S and don't understand how the entire package adds up to something sooooooo much more pleasurable to drive than the competition that checking feature boxes is irrelevant.

I've been blessed in life (not a brag, just a fact) - I own more than one six figure Italian exotic and a six figure British grand touring coupe. You know how often I drive them after getting my first Tesla a year ago? Yes I will get around to selling off most of my personal ICE fleet eventually - they're all in storage now.

ZERO. (Okay I lie, the 6-speed 355 spider - my oldest exotic - does see the light of day - it's in a league of its own despite being 22 years old).

My Teslas have rendered these titans of exotic and luxury irrelevant and undesirable to drive.

That may be hard to understand coming from the world of $189 a month Camry leases - but it's true.

The Model 3 has zero competition at $35K.

I liked your comment. Where we diverge is Tesla is marketing the 3 (and I'm paraphrasing) as the "everyman's EV, one for the masses) etc. Part of the problem is a fair chunk of the masses don't actually like driving. They want an electric car that gets them from point A to B, yet has all this awesome self-driving tech they hear about every time Tesla is mentioned. They also want the most bang for their buck, and the intangible benefit you're describing doesn't get them to jump at what is now a roughly $50k car. Even if the 3 is a great car at $50k, this all still feels really disappointing when looking at it on paper.

 

[S'toon]

Sorry, Bonnie, as much as I love your well-spoken comments, you are wrong in one important aspect: the OP didn't cite speculations from the forum or other questionable sources, the four bullet points he cited were quotes from Elon himself!

Sure, much might have had to change for various reasons, but I can fully understand he OP's disappointment. I am a realist enough to not have believed all these quotes at face value when they were uttered, but the notions behind them I thought were still Elon's goals - that imho he missed. I think I will still go through with my reservation (even though I now know that I will have to wait even longer than I had feared), but my enthusiasm is slowly waning. Let's hope that the electric BMW 3-series doesn't hit the road in late 2018 as well, otherwise I will certainly be tempted...

Not quite. The 4 bullet points were distortions of what Elon said.

 

[DrivingTheFuture]

I liked your comment. Where we diverge is Tesla is marketing the 3 (and I'm paraphrasing) as the "everyman's EV, one for the masses) etc. Part of the problem is a fair chunk of the masses don't actually like driving. They want an electric car that gets them from point A to B, yet has all this awesome self-driving tech they hear about every time Tesla is mentioned. They also want the most bang for their buck, and the intangible benefit you're describing doesn't get them to jump at what is now a roughly $50k car. Even if the 3 is a great car at $50k, this all still feels really disappointing when looking at it on paper.

Again, 50k is for the early production model, which will really only go to those who waited in line, reserved early on from what I understand. I believe the larger battery model later will go for around 44k . I just purchased one of the original Model S sales brochures online which pictured the initial prototype on the front. They were already mentioning 300 mile range, and this was 5 years ago. Cost? around then averaged 100k I believe. So 50% cost reduction for that range in approx 5 years isn't bad... just typing as I think, take all with a grain of salt

 

[SteveG3]

Entry Level Model S

2013 .................................................... Today​

Price*...........................................$69,500 ................................................ $69,500

EPA Range ..................................218 miles ..............................................249 miles
0-60 mph* ...................................5.5 seconds ..........................................4.3 seconds
Smart Air Suspension ............... option ($thousands) ............................ Included

Power Liftgate .............................option package items ......................... Included
Ambient Interior Lighting ........... part of a total package**
Nav w/real time traffic ............... cost ~$4.5K
HomeLink

Center Console ............................option ~$1K ........................................ Included

Active Safety Tech
-Collision Avoidance ........................all............................................................all
-Auto. Emergency Braking ..........unavailable........................................... Included
-other a.s.t.

Side Mirrors
-Power folding .................................all ..........................................................all
-auto dimming ........................... unavailable ........................................... Included
-heated

LED turning lights ..................... available (?) ......................................... Included

LED Fog Lights ......................... option.................................................... Included


Here's my point, limits to my TMC chart-making skills notwithstanding,

I was hoping for more range on the base model myself, but, I don't see Tesla's strategy as trying to game the public by offering as little as possible for as much as possible. Consider all the value added to the entry Model S over the past 4 years was without ANY competing long range EVs reaching the market in the Model S' class to date. That is, Tesla enhanced value by adding many many features, battery size, and improving performance for the same price, not because the market place required them to, but because with the passage of time, Tesla was able to add more capability to the Model S for less cost.

Similarly, in time, with the GF and Fremont reaching volume production (which means markedly lower costs for Tesla to produce the Model 3), it is all but certain that Tesla will offer more value because they will be able to. Producing an affordable EV that is compelling to as much of the market as possible is an ongoing process, and the tax incentives are there to help accelerate the process (yes, I realize not everyone qualifies for them, they are not perfect).

As I said, I was hoping myself for something like 240 miles of range for $35K, so I "feel that pain" some myself. If these specs are a deal breaker for anyone, that's their own call. Maybe you buy another car, or maybe you wait to see what kind of value Tesla will offer you in a couple of years. That said, I strongly sense that this is simply about the path to producing compelling mass market EVs being challenging, rather than Tesla trying to offer as little as possible for as much as possible.


* a few of these numbers on the 2013 Model S 60 are based off memory and may be slightly off.

** I'm not sure if all the parts of the original total package are now all included in the base vehicle.