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Emergency braking and Side Collision never to be approved in Hong Kong

Discussion in 'Hong Kong' started by T.E.S.L.A, Apr 25, 2017.

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  1. T.E.S.L.A

    T.E.S.L.A Member

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    I just had an interesting conversation with Tesla customer support in Hong Kong about Emergency braking and side collision avoidance in the new generation Teslas....

    The tech support girl had me on hold for quite some time to talk to her team about it, and then told me that those two features might never get approved in Hong Kong.

    Gotta love the Hong Kong red tape of the Transport Department to cripple the safety features that saves lives. Thank you for making cars more dangerous and possibly causing loss of life dear Hong Kong Transport department. Truly an example to the world.
     
  2. ediot

    ediot Member

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    we dont know. we, on this sub-forum, have been quite happy to bring out our pitchforks and shove them at the TD's direction in the past year or so, be it to do with autopilot permissions, summon function, calendar and web browser etc etc..

    but it turns out that for a few of these items, Tesla's HK division basically just didn't submit relevant applications to get them sorted. now this could be due to them knowing the TD's just gonna play hardball and wont give approval anyway, or it could be them not getting their act together. we just dont know, and it's not fair to accuse either party (or any other factor we haven't imagined).

    i guess my point is... that we probably shouldn't point our fingers at the TD or Tesla HK so early, until/ unless we know know the whole story behind it. some campaigning would be good, if Tesla HK could, say invite some officials to have a ride in the cars and some real life experience about what these functions are meant to do, it'd be a start. We all like the old trope of the gov working with a "do less, fxxk up less" attitude, but maybe SOMETHING could be done by us as a collective, it won't just be benefitting us, but the general safety on the road and maybe other car manufacturers too.

    (i'jm kinda hoping to refrain from the most obvious current solution: "Tweet Elon")
     
    • Like x 1
  3. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    Tesla is between a rock and a hard place. Remember the calendar debacle, when Tesla HK blamed the Transport Department for rejecting the calendar App? Transport Department got upset and demanded Tesla retract the statement because they didn't reject it - they merely refused to give an answer whether it should be approved and informed Tesla that offering it in the car would be against the law. We didn't say 'no' (we just didn't say 'yes' and never will).

    Bottom line is that Tesla have to maintain a working relationship with the Transport Department.

    I've actually stopped blaming the transport department for most of this. They merely enforce the law. The core problem is that the law was drafted 20+ years ago, back in colonial times, and has hardly been updated since (despite advances in technology). This affects not just transport law, but pretty much all laws in HK. Our framework here is to outlaw everything, and then specifically permit what is allowed - which would be fine so long as the law is regularly maintained to keep up with reality. Given the business-influenced nature of Hong Kong, and the desire of established businesses to maintain the status quo, updating these laws to allow for new technology and new competition is simply blocked. So, I blame our legislature and legislative process. That process has resulted in the current state of it being illegal to have a calendar app on a car display, but legal to have 10 smartphones in mounts on your dashboard running whatever apps you desire.

    [​IMG]

    P.S. I still blame the transport department for stupid regulations and dumb blind enforcement of those regulations. The law is the law, but the regulations are under their control.
     
    • Like x 2
  4. Optic

    Optic Member

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    Unbelievable that safety features are not accepted by TD. I hope both Tesla and TD get their act together. If no safety features are allowed, will autosteer be approved? If not, we should get our money back.
     
  5. Captain_Kong

    Captain_Kong Member

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    Why couldn't Tesla apply for the emergency braking and side collision functionalities with TD? Volvo has both these functions in their HK vehicles (City Safe) since something like 10 years ago.

    This (either the Tesla / TD arguments) just doesn't make any sense...

    PS. While on the topic of the Tesla Calendar; again, I don't understand why Apple Carplay is allowed in MANY other cars in HK, but not the Tesla Calendar!?
     
    • Like x 1
  6. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    • Like x 1
  7. FequalsMA

    FequalsMA Member

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    Has this actually been confirmed that its going to be another case of the "calendar"? Or are we still speculating at this point?
     
  8. T.E.S.L.A

    T.E.S.L.A Member

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    According to customer care in Hong Kong, we might never have it. Let's hope they get their act together so we can start using these amazing cars for what they were designed and stop having a crippled version of them.
     
  9. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    Speculation based on a comment from some Tesla HK telephone rep.
     
  10. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Does Apple Carplay allow a calendar app to run on the car's screen? I think that is the core issue.
     
  11. Captain_Kong

    Captain_Kong Member

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    Don't believe Apple Carplay has a calendar functionality per se, though I think it's the potential to access similar calendar app (on your iPhone) through Carplay.

    But the key point for the TD / regulations is that Apple Carplay also has zero bearing on the driverability of the vehicle, the premise where Tesla calendar hasn't been approved (or Tesla HK doesn't even bother to apply to the TD or contest TD's formal / informal decision).

    The question then is why is Carplay approved but not the Tesla calendar?
     
  12. Optic

    Optic Member

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    I don't think it's approved. Calendars don't need to be approved from TD wording, they merely told Tesla that it might not be compliant and Tesla made the decision to remove it. Sounds to me like a case of don't poke the bear. Also don't show off any easter eggs. Maybe there are car companies out to get Tesla and just spamming TD with non-compliant bs and forcing their hand.

    We should praise the TD when they do something good instead of poking them.
     
  13. Captain_Kong

    Captain_Kong Member

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    Hmmm... mystery deepens.

    I simply can't believe if Tesla doesn't even bother to apply for the calendar TD "certification" of the Calendar, or they voluntarily withdraw the calendar function based on the perceived TD "non complaint".

    On a related note to Tesla HK, what this implies is that all the Tesla Easter Eggs are "non complaint", are you going to voluntarily withdraw these Easter Eggs from our cars as well?

    From a Tesla's owner's standpoint, TD's perceived "bias" towards the Calendar is a legitimate consideration on their part, but Tesla HK's inaction (if this indeed is the case here) is not.

    Sounded like another Tweet Elon situation?
     
  14. Optic

    Optic Member

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    TD's response to media enquiries on removal of Tesla calendar function

    I think Tesla could have done a better job applying for the calendar exemption. Perhaps they did try. I don't know. But it sounds like if they are willing to fudge the functionality of the calendar then we would get it back. Ie the calendar can show expected battery drain per day, and then it would meet requirement of "information about the current state of the vehicle or its equipment". Or allow the calendar app to prewarm the cabin before some identified event. To me, Tesla played hard ball and didn't know how to navigate the HK politic environment. And in the end, 6mths later, TD is pissed by public shaming and they stop FRT exemption. We all lose.
     
  15. Captain_Kong

    Captain_Kong Member

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    Digressing from the Calendar debate for one moment, Apple Carplay clearly doesn't meet any of the following requirements as cited in TD's response...

    (a) information about the current state of the vehicle or its equipment;
    (b) the current closed-circuit view of any part of the vehicle or the area surrounding the vehicle;
    (c) information about the current location of the vehicle; or
    (d) any other information which is only for the purpose of navigating the vehicle.

    Any half competent lawyer can mount a case, not necessarily or guarantee to approve the Calendar, but to challenge TD perception re the Calendar based on the premise that Apple Carplay is approved and prevalent in many other vehicles in HK.
     
  16. FequalsMA

    FequalsMA Member

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    This whole calendar debacle (and TD at large) really boils my blood.
    Come on its a darn calendar. Update your blasted legislation from the 1960's or whenever.

    I"m just upset we'll very likely get the transporter technology from Star Trek before we ever get the summon feature.

    Which btw would be dang useful in these puny parking spaces.
     
  17. Captain_Kong

    Captain_Kong Member

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    It's not about the TD or the regulations, it's human's SKEWED perception and SELECTIVE interpretation of the regulations. And taking things (TD's guidance) as given without challenging the obvious inconsistency.

    Above all else, I'm amazed why Tesla didn't mount a case based on Apple Carplay.
     
  18. T.E.S.L.A

    T.E.S.L.A Member

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    It seems that Tesla Hong Kong is under pretty weak management, kind of like the Hong Kong government. Nobody seems to want to make any real difference or improvements.

    Tesla Hong Kong is most certainly not Elon Musk's vision of making the future a better place for all.

    You would think that Tesla would employ strong leaders with some "cojones" in a city with so many Teslas on the road per capita.
     
  19. Odlavso

    Odlavso Member

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    Apparently some owners have already received updates for the AEB.
     
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  20. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    About the calendar, I think TD's response was pretty clear that the calendar app does not meet legal regulations (they used wording in a roundabout way though). The only objection they took was to Tesla's specific wording in their software update ("no bearing on drivability"). They never suggested there was any way for exemption.

    As for Carplay, it may simply be a case of selective enforcement. TD already had a target on Tesla's back from the whole autopilot release. The public embarrassment of TD over the calendar issue only made things worse.

    From Apple's site they describe the following for CarPlay:
    "get directions, make calls, send and receive messages, and listen to music"
    Other than perhaps the messages, I'm pretty sure almost all infotainment systems support those functions. I don't see a calendar app in the default apps (there is phone, music, maps, messages, now playing, podcasts, audiobooks).
    iOS - CarPlay

    As for user apps through Carplay, TD may not necessarily have scrutinized that as closely. Technically the app would be running on the user's phone, and TD may be unable to enforce that (I'm pretty sure people in Hong Kong also have those phone holders to put their phone on the dash). Also the app would not be installed while doing type approval. This is different from Tesla's case, where the app is running on the screen itself, and the app is a Tesla app installed by the car manufacturer.

    Maybe if the public complained to TD with a concrete example of a calendar app (or some other app not included in the default categories) running on a Carplay vehicle, then something might happen. I suspect what might happen however is TD simply asks Apple to restrict that app so it is not allowed in the Hong Kong region.
     

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